DPPt/HGSS Espeon and Umbreon

[Magpie]

Having recently played Pokemon Colosseum, I'm thinking of training an Espeon and Umbreon on my Diamond. I liked how the two seemed to compliment each other in double battles. Umbreon was good in defense, Espeon in attack. So, does anyone have any suggestions on EV training for the two of them and which natures might be best?

I'm thinking;

Espeon
Modest Nature
Psychic STAB
Hidden Power (Fighting)
Toxic
?? (Thinking about Morning sun/Double team)

Hidden power to take care of dark types, Toxic to annoy. Not sure about the fourth move. I feel that Morning Sun is a waste, since Espeon's defense is poor. Double team might help her live longer...

Umbreon
Nature ??
Dark Pulse STAB
Moonlight
Confuse Ray
??

Much more unsure about Umbreon. Maybe Toxic would be better on him, since his attack stats aren't great. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Are they worth having as a double team, or aren't they up for the job?

* This is for forth Gen, Competitive battling.

 

[Plapti]

Hmmm...

Never forget that HP Fighting, Shadow Ball, and Psychic will hit all types for neutral damage. Grass knot can be thrown in there as well.

Espeon@Wise Glasses
Modest/Timid
252 S.Atk/252 Spd/6 HP
-Psychic
-HP Fighting
-Shadow Ball
-Grass Knot/Calm Mind/Fake Tears

Psychic is STAB.
HP Fighting to hit Steels and Dark-Types.
Shadow Ball to hit Ghosts and other Psychics.
Grass Knot is another good moves.
Calm Mind and Fake Tears add to your sweeping powers.

Umbreon has power in Special Defense/Defense and has reliable recovery move in Wish.
Take which side you want it to wall, and go from there.

Umbreon@Leftovers
Bold/Relaxed/Impish
252 HP/252 Def or S.Def/ 6 Atk or S.Atk
-Wish
-Mean Look
-Toxic/Dark Pulse/Payback
-Baton Pass

Wish works for Recovery and always goes well with Baton Pass.
Mean Look to trap the Pokemon and then switch with Baton Pass. Toxic and you can force the Pokemon to say in and take damage from Poison or give it an attack to not get Taunted.

Use the corresponding nature that benefits your team and Umbreon's moves.

 

[Jeydis]

Double team is not legal in standard play sadly. You mentioned double battles, do you have the intention to use these 2 in double battle competitive? (for yes that exists)

 

[Magpie]

Never forget that HP Fighting, Shadow Ball, and Psychic will hit all types for neutral damage. Grass knot can be thrown in there as well.

Thanks for the reminder, that had slipped my mind. Didn't know Shadow Ball hit all types for neutral damage though. I thought Ghost attacks couldn't hit normal pokemon. Thanks for those movesets! I hadn't even considered wish, I'll have to get breeding those Eevees

I'm thinking about having Umbreon as a Special Defense wall. I hardly ever go for defensive pokemon, since I like speed and attack. Special Attacks seem more common to me, plus Umbreon is weak against both fighting and steel, which are physical attacks, making him not the best choice as a physical wall...

[quote author=Jeydis link=topic=4239.msg57352#msg57352 date=1208841404]
Double team is not legal in standard play sadly. You mentioned double battles, do you have the intention to use these 2 in double battle competitive? (for yes that exists)
[/quote]

Ah. I didn't know that. I'll have to go read some rules I think As for the double battles, I was thinking of both. I think they'd be great in a double battle by themselves, or as part of a team.

 

[Ruko]

Thanks for the reminder, that had slipped my mind. Didn't know Shadow Ball hit all types for neutral damage though. I thought Ghost attacks couldn't hit normal pokemon.

Ghost attacks don't hit all pokemon for neutral damage, the combination of Ghost, Fighting, and Psychic do. That's what Plapti meant.

[quote author=silvermagpie link=topic=4239.msg57358#msg57358 date=1208862344]
plus Umbreon is weak against both fighting and steel,
[/quote]
You know Steel type attacks aren't super-effective on Dark types... right?
Dark just can't do much to steel, I'm used to a pokemon being "weak" to something meaning that it will be killed by an attack of that type.


again I have never seen this Evasion Clause written down anywhere, the other day in my drapion thread is the first place I'd heard of it. May I have a link to the Standard rules YOU refer to?

 

[Magpie]

Ah, I see. Thanks Ruko

You know Steel type attacks aren't super-effective on Dark types... right?
Dark just can't do much to steel, I'm used to a pokemon being "weak" to something meaning that it will be killed by an attack of that type.

Yes I know. I was meaning that if I go with Umbreon having Toxic/Dark Pulse as his only attacking moves, Steel would walk all over him. Toxic wouldn't affect them and Dark Pulse would do hardly any damage. And since I'd not be giving many EVs to Umbreons Defense, the Steel type would be taking out his HP. By weak, I meant there wouldn't be much I could do with Umbreon against a steel type.

Evasion Clause? I don't know what that is... and I don't have any rules I refer to except the Pokecharms ones (Hence the lack of knowledge on double team being a bad choice )

EDIT: Just looked at your Drapion thread and realised you might have been talking to Jeydis. Sorry if that was the case

 

[Jeydis]

Evasion clause is a standard clause for online battling that stops players from using evasion increasing or accuracy decreasing moves. With the exception of Sand Veil coupled with Sandstorm and Bright powder (which adds to the already huge popularity of Garchomp -_-) These are the rules of standard play by Serebii and I beleive they are copied off Smogon's: http://www.serebiiforums.com/showthread.php?t=290790

But I read over the 'Charms rules and it seems we dont have any clauses affecting attacks so you can go ahead and use Double team for matches here, just keep in mind that if someone from outside 'charms challenges you you may want to ask if the Evasion clause applies.

 

[Magpie]

Thanks Jeydis, that link will be very useful.

I think I'll forget about teaching Double team... even if it is ok here, I know how annoying the move can be. Plus knowing me I'd forget it is frowned upon elsewhere :

 

[Ruko]

So it's only from Serebii then ;p
thanks for that Jeydis

[shifting back on topic]

Poison Types will give an Umbreon with just Toxic just as much trouble ;p
I really don't think Mean Look is worth it... but it's one of those moves I don't ever use.
Most people I know would expect Toxic from an Umbreon and will have already switched if they were planning on it, would have already switched.

Wish
Baton Pass
Toxic
Psychic

This will cover poison types, though you won't have any Dark STAB. Umbreon can't learn any attacks that Steel Types aren't resistant to.

Psychic
Confuse Ray
Toxic
Moonlight/Wish

This will also cover Poison types, and add room for Confusion annoyance; though you lose the Wish/Baton Pass combo. You can still use Wish if you want it on this one, but you lose the oppurtunity for Umbreon to take the hit.

 

[Magpie]

Poison types too
I've never used Mean Look either, except of course on Gengar as my 'capture the runners' Pokemon. I can see that it would be useful to keep pokemon in battle after poisoning them, but I'm liking Psychic as a way to counter Poison. (Though if I'm using Espeon alongside Umbreon, hopefully she'd be able to deal with any poison types)

I like Confuse Ray on Umbreon, it's always served me well in the past. Hmmm, lots to think about. Thanks for the advice and the Wish Eevee

 

[shadowlatias]

Anyway, My umbreon dosnt know any dameging moves

(batton pass, wish, toxic, mean look)

Clinic Edit: Plapti That there was some pointless advice and you don't have to quote everything the previous person said. Stuff not needed edited out. Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[Magpie]

I've never been a fan of Chansey. Besides, Espeon and Umbreon may not be the best pair to put together, but I want to try them regardless.

As for the recommendations, they don't really fit in with what I'm trying to do here...
I'm looking at making a good Espeon/Umbreon partnership, not which other pokemon might be best.

 

[shadowlatias]

Okay. Just trying to help.

Can espeon learn amnesia?

Clinc Edit Plapti: Edited out stuff not needed once again.

 

[Magpie]

Don't think so... but I might be wrong. I don't even think Eevee can learn it as an egg move.

 

[Plapti]

Espeon can't learn Amnesia. Period.

Anywho, shadowlatias, you don't have to quote everything. I've seen you do it with most of your posts. It gets very annoying. Please don't do it anymore. This is from the moderation team. Thank you.

 

[shadowlatias]

okay okay... but seriosly, i was only trying to help.

 

[Plapti]

You mean well, but it seems to me that you never read the first post saying that it was going to be just Umbreon and Espeon to be helped, not anyone else.

As for the recommendations, they don't really fit in with what I'm trying to do here...
I'm looking at making a good Espeon/Umbreon partnership, not which other pokemon might be best.

So, my advice is this, read what the person says and start from there. Do that, and you'll be fine.

 

[shadowlatias]

Alright....

I would recomend having 2 good atacking moves (foucus blast?) and 2 good defence

amnesia and double team?

 

[Jeydis]

Alright....

I would recomend having 2 good atacking moves (foucus blast?) and 2 good defence

amnesia and double team?

You just dont read do you...None of the Eevee evos learn Amnesia [glow=red,2,300]none at all[/glow] and same goes for Focus Blast. And she said she wouldnt use double team either...

So it's only from Serebii then ;p
thanks for that Jeydis

Those rules were established by smogon; the community that pretty much decides everything for standard play since they have the most high ranked players and such.

To compliment each other simply use Umbreon to annoy/stop the opponents (Confuse ray and Toxic help alot here) and maybe build a calm mind Espeon to sweep away teams with it. so my finilized builds for you are:

Espeon@Leftovers
Timid is the preffered nature here, anything that helps Special attack or toughness can work too.
EVs: If you want to bother the ideal EVs for her would be - 6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
Attacks:
- Calm Mind
- Shadowball
- Psychic
- Hidden Power fighting if you can manage it, if not you can throw in Protect to help her stay in the field longer.

Umbreon@Leftovers
Bold or Careful work well
EVs: Once again only if you want to bother with them - 252 HP / 24 Def / 232 Spe
Attacks:
- Wish
- Fake Tears (Helps soften up the enemies for Espeon)
- Toxic
- Payback/Pursuit/Dark Pulse (The choice depends mostly on your playing style and the "metagame" you want to play in.

Hope this helps

 

[Magpie]

Those movesets make sense. HP Fighting might be difficult, but I was lucky with Manectric and HP Water, so maybe I will be again. If not, Protect does seem like a good option I've overlooked

Umbreon@Leftovers
Bold or Careful work well

Perfect, the Eevee Ruko traded me to become by Umbreon is Bold Natured (Thanks Ruko )

It helps a lot thanks, Jeydis. Hopefully I'll get their evo training right. Thanks for all your help

 

[Plapti]

Grass Knot is always a solid option over HP Fighting if you still have the TM. Most Steels are heavy, so Grass Knot benefits with a higher base power.

 

[Magpie]

I still have the TM, so I might try both HP Fighting and Grass Knot, to see which works better for me.

Thanks Plapti

I'll lock this topic now, thanks everyone for your help!