Prepare to die laughing.

[Crabmeat]

Ok when you read this you will not believe what you are reading. This has to be one of the funniest things I have ever read in my entire life. Mr.Oak I know you will enjoy this.

Pokemon (short for POcKEt MONster and pronounced Poh-keh-mon) is now the rage among both Christian and non-Christian children in much of the world. What do these "pocket monsters" teach our children and what are the philosophies underlying this "innocent" game? Is this something that Christian children should be involved with?

Note to parents: The intent of this page is not to convince you that Pokemon is the most dangerous activity your child can be involved in. There are many other activities that are more dangerous to your child both physically and spiritually. However, the overwhelming attraction of the game and its addictiveness cause it to have a significant influence on children.
Note to non-Christians: This page does NOT apply to you. Since you are not under the headship of Jesus Christ, this page will make no sense to you, since the Holy Spirit is not active in your life. Don't assume that you are a Christian because you go to church or have Christian parents. YOU personally must make a decision to follow Jesus Christ in order to be a Christian.

Pokemon is a role-playing game similar to Dungeons and Dragons, MAGIC, and others, but with more subtle occult overtones. It is a copyright of Nintendo and was first created in Japan in 1995, where it was highly influenced by Japanese mysticism. Much of its character seems to come from Shinto (the traditional religion of Japan), Buddhism, Hinduism, other Eastern religions, and New Age philosophies. The game reflects Japan's warrior past in its violence, with the object being to conquer other Pokemons through physical force or sorcery.


©1995, 1996, 1998 Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, ©1999 Wizards
Besides the Eastern religious overtones, New Age concepts abound in the Pokemon cards.2 Each Pokemon is a certain "type," which describes their "energy." There are currently 7 types of Pokemon, including "Grass," "Fire," "Water," "Lightning," "Psychic," "Fighting," and "Colorless."3 Many of the 150 Pokemons use violence to conquer other Pokemons. This violence includes gnawing, slashing, smash kick, fire blast, seismic toss, electricity, poison, psychic blasts, paralyzing, etc.4 This is not the "innocent" game that it is made out to be. Other Pokemons "evolve" through the use of "stones" (thunder, water, moon, fire, and leaf) which are items used to summon powers (the origin of these "powers" is not stated, but they are not from God).4 Training cards also include those that use "potion" and "super potion" to magically heal your damaged Pokemon fighters.

Many Pokemons evolve "naturalistically" to become other Pokemons (note "Evolution Stage" on image to right). In examining the cards, it is apparent that macroevolution is being taught, since "species" that have evolved from other species are similar in appearance. In some instances, the term "evolution" is used incorrectly, since individual Pokemons are able to "evolve" into more powerful creatures. In essence, the game is teaching a kind of reincarnation.

Here are some examples of Pokemon types and what they do:

Name Attack Method
Jynx "Merely by meditating, the Pokemon launches a powerful psychic energy attack"
Abra "Using its ability to read minds, it will identify impending danger and teleport to safety."
Kadabra "It emits special alpha waves from its body that induce headaches even to those nearby."
Weepinbell "It spits out poisonpowder to immobilize the enemy, and then finishes the enemy with a spray of acid."
Ponyta "Its hooves are 10 times harder than diamonds. It can trample anything flat in moments."
Machoke "Karate chop does 50 damage points"



"I will travel across the land
Searching far and wide
Each Pokemon to understand
The power that's inside.
Gotta catch them all!"

The words above are from the Pokemon song that is sung at the end of the television program. Children are being encouraged to tap into the power of the Pokemon cards. Further instruction is given at the official Pokemon card site (Wizards of the Coast):

"Carry your Pokemon with you, and you're ready for anything! You've got the power in your hands, so use it!"5

Many children are taking this instruction to heart and literally carry their Pokemon cards with them everywhere. We are even seeing these card appearing at our church and Christian school (from which they are now banned). Children are being encouraged to tap into supernatural power instead of the power given by God.6 They are told that the more cards they collect, the more power they will have. Many children are completely addicted to the cards and spend all of their free time playing with them. If nothing else, Pokemon has become an idol in their lives - being more important to them than God.


©1995, 1996, 1998 Nintendo, Creatures, GAMEFREAK, ©1999 Wizards
The use of Pokemon cards can potentially open doors to demonic oppression through the following activities:7

possession (known or unknown) of occultic records, tapes, books, pictures, charms, tools, games, etc.
seeking or giving consent to occultic power or occultic revelation
fascination with occultic power, occultic revelation, or psychic phenomena, in general
escapism through thrill-seeking, science fiction, soap operas, or some other addicting hobby/activity
fascination with violence, especially violence devoid of justice
meditation on anything other than God's revealed truth
chanting or other cultic/occultic forms of worship
The Bible's teaching is clear about being involved in occultic activities. We are told not to become involved in sorcery or divination or consult with mediums or spiritists.8 The high penalty (death) for engaging in sorcery indicates the seriousness of this sin in the eyes of God.9

While Pokemon continues to gain popularity, its creators will continue to introduce new ways to become a Pokemon "Master." At some point, in order to maintain interest in the game, it will become necessary to add new features/characters and alternate means to "get the power." My prediction is that this game will add more New Age features, along with more violent and bizarre characters. Those who are involved in Pokemon will continue to be indoctrinated more deeply in the New Age philosophies. In fact, Pokemon resources are listed under New Age resources.10

Another threat to children who play with Pokemon and other role playing games is the tendency to become involved in more serious forms of role playing games, such as Doom,11 Dungeons and Dragons, Magic: the Gathering, and role playing games with even more occultic overtones. In fact, Pokemon sites often have links to these sites (wizards.com, etc.). The "Role Player's Realm," which links to Pokemon and other role playing games has the uninhibited URL "www.screaming.demon.nl/." Another blatantly occultic site "Pagan Playground" (www.paganplayground.com/) offers occult items along with Pokemon links "by popular demand." The association with the occult is fairly obvious.

Conclusions
Pokemon teaches the following concepts/philosophies that are counter to Christianity:

Violence as a means of obtaining power.
Evolution
New Age concepts (reincarnation, psychic power)
The use of occult objects (magic stones) to gain power over your opponent
Continued participation in Pokemon may lead to:

Involvement in the game that leads to psychological addiction such that the game becomes an idol in the life of the child
Involvement in malevolent role playing games (and people associated with them)
Open doors to demonic oppression
Recommendations
If your child has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, I recommend that he be given the facts about Pokemon and what the Bible says about participating in sorcery. A child who is encourage to pray about his involvement in Pokemon and follows the Holy Spirit will voluntarily give up participation with Pokemon-associated activities. Several children we have talked to have made this decision without being forced to do so by their parents. If your child has not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, I would make the decision unilaterally and explain why he would not be allowed to participate in Pokemon-related activities. If your child is highly involved with or addicted to Pokemon, I would provide extra support for them and encourage and provide opportunities for them to engage in other, less threatening hobbies/activities. Scouts and AWANA are excellent organizations that teach moral values while the children have fun participating.

Source: http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/pokemon.html

 

[Linkachu]

I don't even need to read that to believe it. You could find it on every Christian site you checked back in the day. Pokemon = teh devil.

They had mass bondfires of Pokemon merch at one point, too. It was to "cleanse the evil brainwashing their children". It makes me laugh at how insecure these people must be... But I kinda feel sorry for them. Don't they have anything better to do wtih their lives?

 

[Meangreen]

I wouldn't laugh but i'm not too worried about these things either.

Dosen't it just scream of Bush's "moral" campaign too.

 

[Doctor Oak]

I love how all Christians assume everyone should follow God and that they're more evil than serial killers or terrorists or even in the same band if they don't.

Religion makes me want to vomit - especially when it attacks a harmless game simply because it is popular.

 

[Lugiasian]

"If nothing else, Pokemon has become an idol in their lives - being more important to them than God"

This is total bullshit. Pokemon is nothing but a hobby. You think we'd accept Charizard or Pikachu as our god? No. We're not THAT obsessed. :wink:

Okay, show me a kid that has become a killing zombie under the influence of Pokemon and I'll show you a proper Pokecharms tongue smiley. Sorry, there's no way.

Personally(no offense, IMO), I think Christians are the most discriminating race. I myself am Catholic, and well, my mom's not telling me to stop playing Pokemon "because it's for the devil". Also, don't Jehova witnesses think Pokemon is demonic?

Besides, I'm surprised that Christians haven't bashed Yu-Gi-Oh as much as they have Pokemon. That stuff is ten times more evil than Pokemon. :evil:

 

[Linkachu]

This is total bullshit. Pokemon is nothing but a hobby. You think we'd accept Charizard or Pikachu as our god? No. We're not THAT obsessed. :wink:

I've never thought of Pokemon as my "God" or anything, but it has saved me from doing stupid things a few times. Would that be considered going overboard with it? ^^;

 

[Yoshimitsu]

[quote name='"Seraphina"]Okay' date=' show me a kid that has become a killing zombie under the influence of Pokemon and I'll show you a proper Pokecharms tongue smiley.[/quote']

*Hint hint*

 

[Doctor Oak]

For the.... IT'S COMING. Soon. Seriously. When i'm not working as much.

And Shigeru Miyamoto is my God. Nintendo is my Church... The Gamecube my Bible and the DS my little pocket bible thing. ^^

 

[QuagsireQing]

Good grief, what a topic. Maybe I'll post a little something on the subject.

Note to non-Christians: This page does NOT apply to you. Since you are not under the headship of Jesus Christ, this page will make no sense to you, since the Holy Spirit is not active in your life. Don't assume that you are a Christian because you go to church or have Christian parents. YOU personally must make a decision to follow Jesus Christ in order to be a Christian.

That's about as far as I agree with this entire article. The rest is mostly baloney.

Pokemon is a role-playing game similar to Dungeons and Dragons, MAGIC, and others, but with more subtle occult overtones.

Occult overtones? Yes, they're there in the forms of Channelers, Psychics, Mediums, etc...although they usually play a very limited role in each game. Does it bother me? No, because it's a game. Do the good witches in The Wizard of Oz strike you as a positive advertisement for witchcraft?

It is a copyright of Nintendo and was first created in Japan in 1995, where it was highly influenced by Japanese mysticism. Much of its character seems to come from Shinto (the traditional religion of Japan), Buddhism, Hinduism, other Eastern religions, and New Age philosophies. The game reflects Japan's warrior past in its violence, with the object being to conquer other Pokemons through physical force or sorcery

Not only did they totally pluralize the word Pokémon incorrectly, but they seem to believe that this game promotes warrior-like violence (ie: Rapid Spin?) and evil sorcery (ie: Thunder Wave?). And, whether it draws upon diverse religions as source materials is of no consequence: everything is based upon something else, after all, and it doesn't necessarily reflect the maker's views upon those sorts of things.

Other Pokemons "evolve" through the use of "stones" (thunder, water, moon, fire, and leaf) which are items used to summon powers (the origin of these "powers" is not stated, but they are not from God).

Items used to summon powers? I recently evolved Vileplume, and the animation showed Vileplume approaching me (it's friendship with me was high) and me touching the stone to it. I guess they edited out the part about the power-summoning.

Many Pokemons evolve "naturalistically" to become other Pokemons (note "Evolution Stage" on image to right). In examining the cards, it is apparent that macroevolution is being taught, since "species" that have evolved from other species are similar in appearance. In some instances, the term "evolution" is used incorrectly, since individual Pokemons are able to "evolve" into more powerful creatures. In essence, the game is teaching a kind of reincarnation

In essence, the game is teaching a kind of child-adolescent-adult growth, with a different label.

Machoke "Karate chop does 50 damage points"

Uhh...maybe that was put in by accident? I miss the point...

"I will travel across the land
Searching far and wide
Each Pokemon to understand
The power that's inside.
Gotta catch them all!"

The words above are from the Pokemon song that is sung at the end of the television program. Children are being encouraged to tap into the power of the Pokemon cards.

'Cuz the Pokémon cards have so much power. And because the TV show ever has anything to do with the cards, except for maybe using some of Sugimori's card-exclusive artwork to draw characters.

"Carry your Pokemon with you, and you're ready for anything! You've got the power in your hands, so use it!"5

Many children are taking this instruction to heart and literally carry their Pokemon cards with them everywhere. We are even seeing these card appearing at our church and Christian school (from which they are now banned). Children are being encouraged to tap into supernatural power instead of the power given by God.6 They are told that the more cards they collect, the more power they will have. Many children are completely addicted to the cards and spend all of their free time playing with them. If nothing else, Pokemon has become an idol in their lives - being more important to them than God.

Anyone? Care to point out the scripture where it says "thou shalt not bring thy objects of hobby to church?" Nah, didn't think so. Now, I am in agreement with the second part of this statement, and think that nothing should ever be more important than God in a Christian's life, but I'm absolutely guilty of the same offense. When I wake up in the morning, do I study the Bible or have personal devotions? No, I put that off until before I go to bed, often forgetting, playing video games instead. When I get my DS in two Sundays, I just know I'm going to be thinking about it all morning, instead of paying rapt attention to the sermon.

Pokemon is nothing but a hobby. You think we'd accept Charizard or Pikachu as our god? No. We're not THAT obsessed.

The passage didn't say that Pokémon have become our gods, rather that the game itself has become our god. "You shall not have any other gods before me," God said in the Ten Commandments, and when anything becomes more important than God in our lives, we know that we've let something take what should be His place. We're not worshipping the characters as if they were God, but we're guitly of "worshipping" (keep this word loose) the play of the game over Him.

The Bible's teaching is clear about being involved in occultic activities. We are told not to become involved in sorcery or divination or consult with mediums or spiritists

We'll keep this point open for the next time they have your character consult with a medium...

While Pokemon continues to gain popularity, its creators will continue to introduce new ways to become a Pokemon "Master." At some point, in order to maintain interest in the game, it will become necessary to add new features/characters and alternate means to "get the power." My prediction is that this game will add more New Age features, along with more violent and bizarre characters. Those who are involved in Pokemon will continue to be indoctrinated more deeply in the New Age philosophies. In fact, Pokemon resources are listed under New Age resources

Sorry, but apart from the fact that I know have a hobby in something, I can't say my faith in God has changed for the worse since I started playing Pokémon games. I feel I've grown closer to Him (though, of course, not due to the games, that would be silly ), and have certainly not begun to follow the New Age ways.

Another blatantly occultic site "Pagan Playground" (www.paganplayground.com/) offers occult items along with Pokemon links "by popular demand." The association with the occult is fairly obvious.

Just like when you go to a video rental store and see that they sell chips. The association between Warner Bros. and Lays is fairly obvious.

If your child has accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, I recommend that he be given the facts about Pokemon and what the Bible says about participating in sorcery. A child who is encourage to pray about his involvement in Pokemon and follows the Holy Spirit will voluntarily give up participation with Pokemon-associated activities. Several children we have talked to have made this decision without being forced to do so by their parents. If your child has not accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, I would make the decision unilaterally and explain why he would not be allowed to participate in Pokemon-related activities. If your child is highly involved with or addicted to Pokemon, I would provide extra support for them and encourage and provide opportunities for them to engage in other, less threatening hobbies/activities. Scouts and AWANA are excellent organizations that teach moral values while the children have fun participating.

I am completely and without a doubt a born-again Christian. Jesus IS my Lord and Savior, and Pokémon is my hobby. There's nothing wrong with video games, as long as they don't become more important to me than God. That's the important thing. Just...wow, I'd like to meet whoever wrote this for a good Christian-to-?Christian? debate.

I love how all Christians assume everyone should follow God and that they're more evil than serial killers or terrorists or even in the same band if they don't.

Is that what you believe? Do you think we want to be a group of people who are judgmental and shaft everyone who doesn't believe as us? I think not. What kind of witnesses would that make us? And that word is the whole point of Christianity, or at least a big part of it: "witnesses." To be witnesses for Jesus to the world. It's what's called the "Great Commission." We don't want to shove Christianity down anyone's throats, but we know there is nohing worse than spending eternity without God, and I honestly can't let anyone just slip through my fingers without at least trying to help. Evil is a word I would reserve for the devil, not people, and I would never shun anyone just because they don't believe as I. Sure, I'd pray they come to know the same God I do, and not be ashamed to tell it to them, either, but for their own good, and God's greater glory.

Religion makes me want to vomit - especially when it attacks a harmless game simply because it is popular.

Religion isn't attacking a harmless game: some random author is attacking this game.

I should've had Curtis write this all out: he's better at serious discussions than I am. But the basic point is: I am a Christian, I love God, He loves you, and...the author of this needs to learn a thing or two about Pokémon. :wink:

 

[Doctor Oak]

I honestly can't let anyone just slip through my fingers without at least trying to help

See, this is what i mean. They never even consider the fact that... maybe the people DON'T want the help? It's supposed to be personal belief, if you believe it then fine - go off and believe in it and do what you do. No skin off my nose, people going to church doesn't bother me outside of when those blasted bells used to go off all morning.

If Athiests can do that towards Christians, or any religion, why not the other way around? They refuse to believe the fact that maybe they are wrong and that some people will just not believe in it. It's not as if you HAVE to. The people who don't arn't going to fear burning in a hell they don't believe exists. If Christians especially (Because as the dominant religion they do have quite some power over the world and do tend to therefore think of themselves above the other religions - but then again all Religions consider themselves to be 'correct' above all others, there's no difference there except in that Christianity is simply the most popular at the moment) stopped interfering with people's lives that don't want them to be interefered with then that'd be great. We'd all get on happily in our own beliefs.

However, they don't. They stand outside public places and rant and rave about how people who arn't bowing down in fear of God are going to burn in hell. That REALLY does my head in. Nothing annoys me more than people preaching to me about something i consider to be irrelvant to me.

For example, one day i got cornered by one of these preachers standing in the street and his bunch of bible-bashing cronies and he shoves the mike in my face and says "Do you repent?" I swear, had i not focused on resisting the urge to, i'd have told him to "Fuck off" into the mike. Instead I decided to play along, see how far i could get the guy.

"No" I replied.
Bringing the mike back to him he said "Then you, my son, are destined to continue on in unrest in hell. You must repent, you must give up your life to God and repent for your sins."
"Right well," I reply, taking the mike back because I knew the git wasn't going to hand it back to me after getting his party piece going. "firstly, I don't believe there is a Hell to burn in. Secondly, I don't believe there is a God to give up my life for. Thirdly, I quite like my life and have no intention of ruining it for the sake of you and your deity. Fourthly, the only thing i consider to be a sin is the fact that i'm giving serious consideration to shoving your Microphone where the sun wont shine and your Lord almighty wont be able to help you. Now if you don't mind, i'm kind of in the middle of trying to buy some crap for my materialistic ways and I'd appreciate it if you buggered off and worshipped your Lord outside of my face."

And with that, he threw the mike back at him - which the fool dropped and gave feedback with and buggered off down the street. I could hear the git going "YOU WILL REPENT WHEN YOU BURN! YOU WILL REPENT".

Now tell me that isn't forcing it down people's throats.

Another reason i'm completely against religion is because all it is is a crusty old man reading from a 2000 year old book telling you what you cannot do. How the hell is that worshipping anyone? It's just a form of control. "You shall not play videogames, they are ruining our society and creating a culture of thug youths!". "No Sex!". "No Gays!".

And that's not even the final point I have against it... The most obvious being that I hate Religion for all the wars it starts - especially the one here. If that's not a good enough reason to turn against this belief that there is an all powerfull Deity pulling the strings from the clouds above then all else that lies outside of what i've already mentioned is that I do not see it as a Logical possibility.

I have my own theories about why we even go about this Religion thing in the first place - but i'm not going to go around saying Religion is nothing more than basic natural instincts left over from when we evolved - mostly because I do respect the fact that some people do believe in God and stuff. I just really do not see why the people who do cannot respect the people who don't.

Oh, and as this is becoming a debate rather than a simple reactionary topic to an article - moving to Debate Forum.

 

[QuagsireQing]

See, this is what i mean. They never even consider the fact that... maybe the people DON'T want the help? It's supposed to be personal belief, if you believe it then fine - go off and believe in it and do what you do. No skin off my nose, people going to church doesn't bother me outside of when those blasted bells used to go off all morning.

Ever seen the movie, "The Day After Tomorrow"? Remember the scene in the library when everyone's leaving and the kid is trying desperately to get everyone to stay inside, so they won't be killed, but only five people and a dog are convinced to stay? Put yourself in the shoes of that kid. Can you imagine how awful he felt, knowing all those people were going to die, even though he tried as hard as he could to save them? That's what it's like with Christianity. Trying to save people so that they might have everlasting life in heaven, as opposed to the alternative, being hell. I don't want to sit idly by while people march on towards the default destination, especially my friends.

If Athiests can do that towards Christians, or any religion, why not the other way around? ... It's not as if you HAVE to. The people who don't arn't going to fear burning in a hell they don't believe exists. If Christians especially...stopped interfering with people's lives that don't want them to be interefered with then that'd be great. We'd all get on happily in our own beliefs.

Man, that bit out of "The Day After Tomorrow" could practically be an allegory. Again, yeah, non-Christians might not fear what's coming up, because they don't believe in it, but just because one doesn't believe in something doesn't make it any less true. Maybe if Christians stopped trying to save souls, and just let people wander on doing whatever they wanted, the unsaved would get on happily...at least until they died. That happiness would disappear pretty quickly.

However, they don't. They stand outside public places and rant and rave about how people who arn't bowing down in fear of God are going to burn in hell. That REALLY does my head in. Nothing annoys me more than people preaching to me about something i consider to be irrelvant to me.

For example, one day i got cornered by one of these preachers standing in the street and his bunch of bible-bashing cronies and he shoves the mike in my face and says "Do you repent?" I swear, had i not focused on resisting the urge to, i'd have told him to "Fuck off" into the mike. Instead I decided to play along, see how far i could get the guy.

"No" I replied.
Bringing the mike back to him he said "Then you, my son, are destined to continue on in unrest in hell. You must repent, you must give up your life to God and repent for your sins."
"Right well," I reply, taking the mike back because I knew the git wasn't going to hand it back to me after getting his party piece going. "firstly, I don't believe there is a Hell to burn in. Secondly, I don't believe there is a God to give up my life for. Thirdly, I quite like my life and have no intention of ruining it for the sake of you and your deity. Fourthly, the only thing i consider to be a sin is the fact that i'm giving serious consideration to shoving your Microphone where the sun wont shine and your Lord almighty wont be able to help you. Now if you don't mind, i'm kind of in the middle of trying to buy some crap for my materialistic ways and I'd appreciate it if you buggered off and worshipped your Lord outside of my face."

And with that, he threw the mike back at him - which the fool dropped and gave feedback with and buggered off down the street. I could hear the git going "YOU WILL REPENT WHEN YOU BURN! YOU WILL REPENT".

Now tell me that isn't forcing it down people's throats.

Another reason i'm completely against religion is because all it is is a crusty old man reading from a 2000 year old book telling you what you cannot do. How the hell is that worshipping anyone? It's just a form of control. "You shall not play videogames, they are ruining our society and creating a culture of thug youths!". "No Sex!". "No Gays!".

I can't account for a few guys or ranters bugging you. People who rant bother me, too, no matter what the subject. This interviewer sounds a bit on the zealous side, if you ask me. The quotation about video games is like the article posted in the first post in this topic, and sex is one of God's greatest gifts to mankind, a privilege given to a man and his wife (yes, that's the proper context) as an intimate relationship. Homosexuality just flies in the face of what God designed for the human race, but God loves homosexuals just as much as He does everyone else; its the PRACTICE we're against, not the people.

And that's not even the final point I have against it... The most obvious being that I hate Religion for all the wars it starts - especially the one here.

Wars are a part of human nature. You can't blame religion for the wars it causes, it's people that can't take the help being offered them that are the cause of the wars. Kinda like if you were trying to remove the tonsils of a crocodile (do they have tonsils?) and it didn't like the idea of some buy reaching down its throat, and chomping down on the arm, only to have the doctor knock the crocodile out to continue for the animal's own good. Only large-scale. Removing the tonsils didn't hurt the crocodile, but its attitude towards the whole thing caused the scuffle.

 

[Doctor Oak]

I think it's fairly fair to blame religion for this war... there wouldn't BE a war if there was no religious divide.

but just because one doesn't believe in something doesn't make it any less true

And one believing in it makes it more true?

at least until they died. That happiness would disappear pretty quickly.

Well, as far as i'm concerned, when you're dead EVERYTHING disappears fairly quickly. You're dead after all - that's it, done and dusted, no more. I may not like the idea of my mortality, i do enjoy my life but i don't intend to delude myself with hopes of immortality in another life after this.

Take Mormons for example, they dedicate their WHOLE lives into getting ready for the next. Now, take yourself out of a Christian's shoes for a moment and assume that there is no afterlife. What kind of a waste of a life is that?

Christianity in a way practises that. Saying that you follow these rules now and you'll be happy forever after you die.

Well, as far as i'm concerned i'll be nothing after i die and i have no intention of wasting this life i have now worrying about what would happen after death if this heaven and hell stuff really and truely existed.

sex is one of God's greatest gifts to mankind, a privilege given to a man and his wife (yes, that's the proper context) as an intimate relationship. Homosexuality just flies in the face of what God designed for the human race, but God loves homosexuals just as much as He does everyone else; its the PRACTICE we're against, not the people.

Anal sex is now practised by about as many men and women couples regularly as homosexuals practise it regularly. Numbers wise that is, not percentages.

Now, does that mean all Christians are against Anal Sex all together? No... in fact going by a good few reports from some trials involving priests, some of 'God's Men' quite enjoy giving and taking.

No, what this IS all about is that it's a man and a man or a woman and a woman. It's not the normal thing, it's the minority. As far as mankind is concerned that means it is in the wrong. I mean, we try to convince ourselves that we care about minorities too but look at continuing racism and even our political systems. Majority rule, Minority drool. Nowhere does that stand out more currently than in America where George Bush with his majority now has destroyed the democrats.

Their minority is extremely high, 49% in fact. It's almost half of the country, it practically is. However, because it is the minority it has no say. They have no say over the highest level of running the country via the Whitehouse. They have little say over matters of legality with their being shut out of Congress and they have no say over interpretation of the Constitution because of the Republican dominated Supreme Court. Yet, pretty much half of the country DISAGREES with the Republicans.

Homosexuals are discriminated against by the church and church influenced governments because they are minorities and therefore are irrelevant to methods of control. You don't need to control the minority if you have the majority under your wing.

Homosexuality just flies in the face of what God designed for the human race

Why? It's love isn't it? Why should this 'loving God' be against people in love?

What possible harm is homosexuality doing to anyone? Seriously. It's not as if a tolerant society towards gay people is going to suddenly turn everyone's nice little christian heterosexuals Gay over night.

On to the original point once more:

There is no NEED for Christians to go around saying "We're right, you're wrong, and you'll be the one pissed off when you die and go to hell" I mean, that's practically what you said here QQ:

Trying to save people so that they might have everlasting life in heaven, as opposed to the alternative, being hell. I don't want to sit idly by while people march on towards the default destination, especially my friends.

That is FINE. Fine, dandy, grand, all the rest for Christians to sit around in the belief that they will go to an everlasting life in heaven but why must they say that without even thinking about an alternative that it IS what is lying in store for people - heaven or hell. Equally, i cannot say that there is no heaven or hell but I certainly don't believe in them. I'd be extremely shocked if i died and ended up at a set of pearly gates or surrounded by fire and brimstone but i'd shrug it off and go "Oh well, I was wrong after all". I re-iterate, i simply do not belive there is a heaven or hell for us to go to though.

Christians should be able to do the same in reverse. Accept that they MAY JUST be wrong. There is nothing more ignorant than saying "I'm right, there is no other option." and that is EXACTLY what Christians are saying.

Some Athiests do say it the opposite way; "I'm right that there is no heaven and there is no hell and there is no other option" but i'm not one of them. I may not believe that they exist but i'm not going to stand up and say they 100% sure-fire don't.

In fact, existing depends on what you define existing as. If existing means that they idea is there and exists are physically as an apple in your hand within your mind - then it does exist for Christians and any others who believe in their own afterlifes. But really, to me, that's as far as they exist as far as I can see and I don't really see the chances of my being proven wrong.

I have no problem with people saying "I believe i'm going to heaven when I die and i'll be happy forever" But i cannot stand people who say "You're going to hell to be unhappy forever." or the suchlike, though few ever say you're going to Heaven. It's a matter of your own belief and I most certainly do not think that ANYONE should force their own beliefs onto others, majority rule or not.

 

[QuagsireQing]

And one believing in it makes it more true?

No, God saying it makes it more true.

Christianity in a way practises that. Saying that you follow these rules now and you'll be happy forever after you die.

You don't think that's a good trade-off? Lessee...a few decades of belief, followed by eternity with God... Sounds good to me!

This is how I see it: there are two beliefs, and each of those beliefs has two possible outcomes at death. Here's how it works:

1) Say you believe that Jesus died to save the entire world from eternal separation from God. When you die, you will be either a) right, and spend eternity in heaven, or you'll be b) wrong, and you end up as nothing after you die. The first case has a big payoff, the second case leaves you nothing to gain or lose, and you wouldn't care anyways, because you no longer exist.

2) Say you don't believe. When you die, you'll either be a) right, and there's no gaining or losing to be done, or you'll be b) wrong, and spend a little while (like, eternity) isolated in hell, suffering eternal torment. Not my idea of a good time.

These cases leave you with three outcomes: one path leads you to forever without God, suffering in absolute pain and isolation, two paths lead you to an afterlife of emptiness, not knowing or caring whether you were right or wrong, and one path leads you to everlasting life in heaven (which is, by the way, as much of a real place as hell or the earth are). Only one path leads you to the most appealing choice, what's stopping on from choosing it?

Homosexuals are discriminated against by the church and church influenced governments because they are minorities and therefore are irrelevant to methods of control.

Like I said before, the church (at least the Christian church) does not discriminate agains homosexuals. It's the practice that is improper, but for the people themselves there is always hope, and it's not to us to judge them. That's God's business.

Why? It's love isn't it? Why should this 'loving God' be against people in love?

What possible harm is homosexuality doing to anyone? Seriously. It's not as if a tolerant society towards gay people is going to suddenly turn everyone's nice little christian heterosexuals Gay over night.

Love? If you want to call it that, then it's a very sick, twisted, perverted sense of the word. The harm it's doing is that it's a mockery of what God designed love to be. As long as one is against God, they're not right with God (well, duh, but that's the point). Not being right with God will result in an infinitely long consequence that nobody's going to like.

I'd be extremely shocked if i died and ended up at a set of pearly gates or surrounded by fire and brimstone but i'd shrug it off and go "Oh well, I was wrong after all".

If that were true, then maybe I wouldn't be so concerned. But, the Bible says that hell is a lake of fire, where the inhabitants wail and gnash their teeth in the unrelentless pain for all of eternity. Doesn't exactly sound like a party does it? It's not something anyone could shrug off, or buckle down and bear, because of its extremity and the fact that it never lets up. That means NEVER, for all of eternity, an infinite amount of time, something our weak human brains can hardly even being to understand.

It's a matter of your own belief and I most certainly do not think that ANYONE should force their own beliefs onto others, majority rule or not.

Forcing our beliefs isn't the issue, again, it's about saving souls, not for our gain, but for their's.

 

[Linkachu]

Why? It's love isn't it? Why should this 'loving God' be against people in love?

What possible harm is homosexuality doing to anyone? Seriously. It's not as if a tolerant society towards gay people is going to suddenly turn everyone's nice little christian heterosexuals Gay over night.

Love? If you want to call it that, then it's a very sick, twisted, perverted sense of the word. The harm it's doing is that it's a mockery of what God designed love to be. As long as one is against God, they're not right with God (well, duh, but that's the point). Not being right with God will result in an infinitely long consequence that nobody's going to like.

This is one thing I have a problem with... I don't recall God ever stating that 'love' was solely between a man and a women. Marriage yes, but not love. Does that mean you can't love your siblings or friends without being perverse? Of course not. Love is love. It's a bond between two people - not gender bias.

 

[QuagsireQing]

Oh how the English language is limited, having only one word to describe love. Actually, there are three basic types of love:

Eros is a physical love, or a physical attraction. Agape is an unconditional love towards everyone in the world, as taught by Jesus, and philia is a tendancy to like someone, like you might love a family member, close friend or your spouse (coupled with eros).

While two guys or two girls can feel philia towards each other (there's nothing wrong with that, them being good friends), it is a problem when eros becomes involved and the relationship moves beyond that. Physical love is to be enjoyed and experienced only by married couples, being man and wife. In any other context, eros is misplaced, be it out of wedlock or with someone else of the same gender.

(I and the Oakster were talking about eros back there.)

 

[Meangreen]

So can anyone explain to me why as Christianity spreads so does support for gay rights and tolerance?

And what are "new age" way?

Uneducatedly yours,
Meangreen.

 

[Linkachu]

(I and the Oakster were talking about eros back there.)

I got that bit ;p

Sadly it's statements like that which turn me away from the Bible. Anything that promotes "We have more rights than you" doesn't follow my image of what "God" actually is. And seriously, I can't see Jesus approaching two gay lovers and telling them that their love is a sin.

Heh... There's one thing I always love about the whole 'marriage' debate - the fact that non-Christians can be married and that divorce is legal. According to the Bible every sin is equal in weight, is it not? Then why are gay marriages being prosecuted so brutally when the rest are virutally ignored? (Possibly not by the Christian community, but clearly by the public).
Someone says they want a divorce - sure thing! We'll do the papers up right away!
Then two homosexuals say they want to be married - Outrageous! How could you even ask such a thing!?

... Maybe that's undermining the trials of divorce, but that's basically how the world runs nowadays. Marriage lost its Christian meaning ages ago. If the current battle against gays wasn't rooted in discrimination then it wouldn't be the 'hot topic' it is

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Ever seen the movie, "The Day After Tomorrow"? Remember the scene in the library when everyone's leaving and the kid is trying desperately to get everyone to stay inside, so they won't be killed, but only five people and a dog are convinced to stay? Put yourself in the shoes of that kid. Can you imagine how awful he felt, knowing all those people were going to die, even though he tried as hard as he could to save them? That's what it's like with Christianity. Trying to save people so that they might have everlasting life in heaven, as opposed to the alternative, being hell. I don't want to sit idly by while people march on towards the default destination, especially my friends.

While I'm here and I have this thought in my head...

Did it ever occur to you that if someone doesn't want help, you shouldn't give it to them. Even if you think it's right, don't bother. If they go and get into trouble/get hurt, it's their problem for not accepting help. All. Their. Fault.

 

[QuagsireQing]

Then why are gay marriages being prosecuted so brutally when the rest are virutally ignored? (Possibly not by the Christian community, but clearly by the public).
Someone says they want a divorce - sure thing! We'll do the papers up right away!
Then two homosexuals say they want to be married - Outrageous! How could you even ask such a thing!?

The Bible is clear that divorce is not something to be taken lightly: the only true grounds for divorce is if one spouse is caught in the act of adultery with another man/woman. I'm not quite sure why divorces are ignored more than gay "marriages," but it's sad how many couples get divorced for such crazy reasons.

Did it ever occur to you that if someone doesn't want help, you shouldn't give it to them. Even if you think it's right, don't bother. If they go and get into trouble/get hurt, it's their problem for not accepting help. All. Their. Fault.

Bible verse time:
"If you don't speak out to warn the wicked to stop their evil ways, they will die in their sin. But I will hold you responsible for their death. If you warn the wicked and they do not turn from their wickedness or their evil ways, they will die because of their sin. But you will have saved your life." ~Ezekiel 3:18b-19

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Bible verse time:
"If you don't speak out to warn the wicked to stop their evil ways, they will die in their sin. But I will hold you responsible for their death. If you warn the wicked and they do not turn from their wickedness or their evil ways, they will die because of their sin. But you will have saved your life." ~Ezekiel 3:18b-19

One question: If someone doesn't accept help, how does that make them 'wicked'? Sorry, but even put out like that I think it's a load of bullshit.

 

[QuagsireQing]

Turning away doesn't make them wicked. Mankind already is, thanks to Adam and Eve.

 

[Doctor Oak]

I love how all Christians assume everyone should follow God and that they're more evil than serial killers or terrorists or even in the same band if they don't.

Bible verse time:
"If you don't speak out to warn the wicked to stop their evil ways, they will die in their sin. But I will hold you responsible for their death. If you warn the wicked and they do not turn from their wickedness or their evil ways, they will die because of their sin. But you will have saved your life." ~Ezekiel 3:18b-19

Thank you for actually backing up one of the points you came to argue against. I could do with that verse too, great for backing up my point in future debates.

 

[QuagsireQing]

You're welcome! ^_^

Though I don't get how that verse backs up your point about your idea of how we see non-Christians...that verse doesn't say anything about us thinking you're all a bunch of terrorists.

 

[Leaf Blade Treecko]

I am a christian and I don't see anything wrong with pokemon! I mean it is just science fiction. These people aren't doing this because they are Christians they are doing this because they want themselves to look good by putting down something that was in at the time. :x I mean Christians arent meant to be judgemental or say "that's wrong and you're going to hell!" Or anything. No Christians are just moral nice people who want to help people who are sinning not cast them out because they are sinners. And I can prove that they were just saying that pokemon was sinful just because it had the word evolve in it and they wanted to make themselves look all high and mighty. I never heard a word against Yugioh! And that is ten times worse then Pokemon. These pathetic people aren't even an accurate representation of Christians! They may attend church but being a Christian is more in the heart then any where else not from them pointing out stuff that they think is wrong and protest against it and make pokemon look immoral or bad!

 

[Ultracow]

"If nothing else, Pokemon has become an idol in their lives - being more important to them than God"


God>Pokémon.

Every person knows that. I can understand what they are saying but they are going overboard with it. This person makes me (insert word meaning some thing less tahn embarassed here) to be Catholic/Christian.

 

[Doctor Oak]

Every Christian knows that. Personally, i'd put Pokemon above it. ^^ But Lord Miyamoto is my God.

 

[Beeps]

Here's what Beepo thinks:

1. Pokemon has nothing to do with sorcery, magic, the whatnot. People are making it sound worse than it really is.

2. I think (okay, "hope") that everyone here agrees with me with me for this part- Pokemon is a great thing to be involved in; just don't let it take over your life.

3. Not "all" Christians are the same. My parents are happy I am involved with Pokemon. (I hope. ) Just because one or some think like that, it doesn't mean each and everyone are all the same.

4.

Did it ever occur to you that if someone doesn't want help, you shouldn't give it to them. Even if you think it's right, don't bother. If they go and get into trouble/get hurt, it's their problem for not accepting help. All. Their. Fault.

That's right. Christians need to know when to talk, and when to stop. Share, but don't let it get overboard.

5. What's wrong with religion? What if you're wrong? What if there is a life after death? If you do become a "religious" person, (take a christian for an example), and there IS no "life after death", then what did you lose? Except for temporary enjoyment, you lost nothing. :wink:

My point is that both sides have right AND wrong points. :roll:
After all, it's not all about you. (And I'm talking to everyone when I say it.) Think about it for a moment.

-Beepo

 

[Crabmeat]

How can anyone go to Hell if God forgives everyone? The bible is full of contradictions which many just happen to ignore. I'm not saying there is no God because quit frankly i don't know, but it's quite likely that the bible is a load of shit. If Jesus existed why is he only spoken of in the bible, The romans at the time were one of the most advanced civilizations they would have had some record of Christ if he had done half the things he was supposed to have but they don't nobody does only this single book. Most people believe in god and the bibles teachings because they were told to it wasn't a decision, there parents brought them up that way. Another thing if god gave humans free will why MUST we do certain things surely that is not free will. Also if we all came from Adam and eve we would all be deformed due to inbreeding which means we wouldn't be in gods image anymore anyway and i know Christians don't believe in evolution because it means that there was no Adam and eve but how do they explain skeletons of early Homo Erectus? or the dinosaurs? who we know did exist it's a fact.

 

[Linkachu]

Actually, after dating an extreme Christian for a bit (mind you, he wasn't to begin with) I can say that Christians do have an retort for all of those comments. The ones from his Church did at least. In truth you can make up retorts for any argument, though... Who's to say what's real and what's not?

I heavily agree with one of your statements. We're told we're given a choice to believe or not to believe yet we're raised that non-believers are sinners. How is that freewill? Kids are shaped by what they see/learn afterall.

 

[Coco]

Religious debates are pointless affairs, In Garys mind there is no God and in Quags mind there is a god, so neither can use point against each other because to the other it just sounds ridiculous.

Quag you may have read about the days that Christians were condemed well now these days Gay people are being condemed and that is not right whether you beleave in god or not. Im not saying you condem them but many christians do and they look down on them.

 

[Farfetchd]

pokémon an afornt to god?, hell no pokémon is just a harmless hobbie and wot they said about non-christains being confused is v raicist :!: :!:

 

[Pichazard]

While I do belive that ,yes you should try to save as many people as you can, but the people who prech on street coners are going about it the wrong way. You should first get to know the person and develop a friendship. Then you can ask them to attend church or whatever with you. The people who preach on street corners are just being hypacritical

 

[Sem]

Bah. Christians like the ones Gary ran into just set up a stereotype for all Christians. As Pichazard said, I believe they are going about it the wrong way. Sem will say it right now that he is Christian. Sem does not preach on street corners nor does he try to impale people with Bibles. I share my belief with people. If they're interested, I'll continue. If they're not, end of story. I dislike people who try to force things on anyone. Simply wrong. I do have respect for people and what they believe. I know that they could be wrong, and I know I could be wrong. I simply have faith in what I believe, however.

I don't feel much different then other non Christian people. I don't feel that my life is hindered in any way. I'm also not judgmental, though a lot of Christians are. I don't hate gay people; I treat them like normal people. It's just that some Christians do act a certain way and when people see that, they go: "Wow, I guess that's how all Christians are." Sorta like a class. If a few kids in a class of 30 act really obnoxious and rude, most people seeing that class think all 30 of em are obnoxious and rude.

Anyway, that's a bit of my view.

As far as the "PokeeMans r of teh Devil!!!11" thing. Yeah, don't really agree with that. They're trying to base an argument on something they know hardly nothing about, taking tid bits here and there instead of viewing the whole thing at once. Probably written by some homeschool parent, trying to 'shelter' their children from the world when one day they will be immersed in it all at once and be totally clueless.

 

[Weavile]

"If nothing else, Pokemon has become an idol in their lives - being more important to them than God"


God>Pokémon.

Every person knows that.

Yeah, unless they are really young, but, they aren't guilty! Also, I didn't even have to read it all to know it was a bunch of crap. Just because we have those random Hexors or whatever randomly, and chanellors in Pokemon Tower, who cares? Pokemon Tower is like a graveyard!! We honor the dead there, it IS educational right there!! Well, if you believe in God and Heaven, that teaches young kids to go to graveyards and hope the best for your relatives and friends who died!!! Atleast, that's how I learned to do that.

 

[Lunareon]

the whole thing was pretty dumb "children are using these "pokemon" as idols or gods". wat balony did they ever think we might just do it as a hobby (for u deranged people) that ur parents force u into doing. "they would throw the pokemon stuuf in fires to cleanse childres minds" the little kids were probably crying the entire time i feel bad for them

 

[Viper1]

Well it could be true. I dont use Charmander as a god, but I do worship him. Alright not really but im obsessed

 

[baratron]

Another board I go to has a "Necromancy is Bad, M'Kay?" system. If you attempt to post in a topic that's more than 60 days old, a terrifying image of something undead springs up on your post screen with large red text warning you that Necromancy is Bad, and suggesting that you want to think again before posting in that thread.

In this thread, we have posts from December 2004 and January 2005 - then one drive-by post in June 2005 - then suddenly the thread springing back into life in September 2006. It's bizarre - we stopped talking about this years ago, then n00bs come by and try to revive the thread. It's old! It's dead! LEAVE IT BE!

I suggest that a time limit of 90 days might work better here, where there are young kiddies posting alongside older people with jobs & lives, but I'd really like to see that brought in. Because necromancy is bad! Don't revive a dead thread! Start a new one if you really want to talk about the same old thing.

Bah.

 

[Doctor Oak]

I'd love a system like that. :O

To avoid further dead-thread-humping, topic locked.