Suggestion for the Mods

[Reynald]

First off: Please lemme know if this is in the wrong area. I have no idea where to put this. Here just seemed like the right place.

I was recently looking over in the Realm of n00bs, which I usually do to reassert myself on the rights/wrongs and for other reasons, when I finally decided to speak my peace. Unfortunately the topic was locked so I figured this might be a good area to say it in.

The topic was about whether a few of the mods were as mean as their reputation states. I have kept quiet about these things while I have been here, mainly because I try my hardest not to anger people and try to understand both sides, but this is what I have to say on the matter:

From my personal experience the mods are actually very cool people when you are talking to them and they aren't in mod mode. I have had fairly interesting conversations from Linkachu, Stellarwind, and a few others and I really enjoyed talking with them.

However, when you guys are in mod mode you do come off as threatening. Most of the time a few of you jump straight to almost insults and vague threats and telling the person to read the rules. I agree the rules need to be read but it made me think. What if the person DID read the rules and they just happened to screw up? Would you guys say the same thing? I don't know. That is not to say your advice is sound or needed. In fact, I would say that your advice is spot on. It is just the way you guys sound when you are saying it that I think infuriates people and makes them think your being mean.

Y'know, I had a really hard time reading this for one reason.

Lack of sentence mechanics. Put some proper punctuation in and maybe I'll read it over.

This is just one example. The advice in it is sound. He is telling the person to look at their sentence mechanics and punctuation, which is all good. The ending part is what I think would upset me. This was the first reply to the n00bs post and the mod was saying that he MIGHT read it over. That would kind of upset me since the realm is for second chances and the mod is only thinking of re-reading my post. The following reply after was fine and polite but I think the n00b was already put off by the first reply.

[At no point in that post was El 'mean' at all.

And "what grammars have I done wrong on this?"... what the hell?

Do you actually speak English? If you do, there's really no reason why you can't write it too.] (I couldn't actually quote it because the topic was locked)

Again the advice is sound, the delivery is what puts people off. To me, if I didn't know or talked to Professor Oak, this would have come off as insulting rather than trying to be helpful. There are other examples but they revolve around immediately assuming an insulting tone of voice followed by things like "You don't belong here." or "Well, too bad." or sometimes it is actually just a bunch of insults. It just seems like the mods are shooting down the second chances that are supposed to be given in the Realm.

I understand that after a time patience just runs out and people lose their temper. But I think a good way to help with all the attacks and insults would simply to be a little more nicer in your tone to the people you're trying to help. You guys don't sound threatening ALL the time, just I noticed that when you do is typically when the insults start flying and the n00b gets angry. It might be I'm just adding a different tone to how I read it, that's just how it comes off to me and apparently a few other people. I know your all nice though, it just sometimes doesn't sound like it.

Thank you for listening to me. I apologize if I offended any of you.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

First thing's first (though editted in since I forgot). Thanks for voicing your concerns.

However, when you guys are in mod mode you do come off as threatening. Most of the time a few of you jump straight to almost insults and vague threats and telling the person to read the rules. I agree the rules need to be read but it made me think. What if the person DID read the rules and they just happened to screw up? Would you guys say the same thing? I don't know. That is not to say your advice is sound or needed. In fact, I would say that your advice is spot on. It is just the way you guys sound when you are saying it that I think infuriates people and makes them think your being mean.

The problem is, we've tried being nice before and it resulted in typically poor results. We've got to a point where being harsh is the only way people actually respond to what we're saying.

Edit:

I understand that after a time patience just runs out and people lose their temper. But I think a good way to help with all the attacks and insults would simply to be a little more nicer in your tone to the people you're trying to help. You guys don't sound threatening ALL the time, just I noticed that when you do is typically when the insults start flying and the n00b gets angry.

Like you said, we don't sound theatening all the time. A lot of the time, we only get 'mean' when a person really deserves it. For example, you will catch me saying in a really harsh way to get out of the RP forums, but I reserve that only for the stupidest people. But seriously, some people -need- to be shouted at or they just don't listen.

 

[Reynald]

Well like I said, sometimes I can understand being upset or having to use a harsh tone. Especially if the user is being an arse and screaming. It just seems like some people don't understand, whether by not reading the rules or otherwise, and it doesn't help them when you come off as angry rather than helpful. People will overlook advice you try to give them if you sound insulting or are yelling at them.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

On the whole, we are generally nicer than the topics in the Realm might suggest. It's not seen, but a fair bit of the time we PM members with ways to improve or concerns about their posting. But with some people, it gets to a point where PMing them just isn't working. When we get to that point, we're more than likely to n00b or ban them in a suitably epic manner.

Also, all the mods have the authority to ban or n00b a user on site if they show a blatant disregard for rules. Many of the Archive of Stupidity topics are people who did just that.

 

[Reynald]

I know you guys are. I have enjoyed quite a few conversations with Linkachu and a few others, even drew a few pictures for them. This is just what I noticed and my ideas on a good way to alleviate the insults and maybe fix your guys' apparently 'mean' reputation. I normally don't look in the Archives because they make my head hurt on occasion. I usually look at the Realm and the occasional random thread throughout the site to see how everything works and how the mods operate. I can understand frustration when someone isn't listening or they are being ridiculously rude, it just seems to get into an insult fight too often where everyone can see it.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I can understand where you're coming from, but look at it this way.

Whatever reputation we have is, on the whole, helping promote the behaviour of the members. Most members know that we don't ban people for nothing, so we're not about to kill someone for the smallest rule breaking.

We've actually eased up a lot on just who we ban and how we ban them. If you'd seen the forums when D/P came out or the TCMaker was launched, you'd understand why some of us have a very low tolerance for idiocy.

 

[Reynald]

Yes it is helping but maybe in a way that is not intended. True, seeming strict will definitely keep the members in line. But I noticed that you and a few others were kind of upset that your reputation was not exactly nice. Maybe it is all in appearance. Since the Realm is open to everyone and PMs obviously are not, people are only getting a look at your bad side. And I agree you don't band people for nothing and I know you wouldn't kill someone over the smallest thing, but that is what it appears like to some. It has positive and negative effects.

I can tell you guys have eased up. I have been on this site for nearly two years and a lot has changed. I just thought maybe my opinion might help since I think you guys are doing a good job and I hate to see you worrying over people liking you and you guys constantly getting bashed. Mostly because I know it's not true. Also, I understand the low tolerance. I even have trouble keeping my cool when it comes to idiocy.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Afaik, I'm the only member who complained about being seen as mean and, frankly, if it means that members behave, I don't mind at all.

Reynald, I can't help but feel that all you're saying is "Be nice to people" to us.

 

[Reynald]

Not so much as be nicer but more of use better wording. That way you sound more like your enforcing the rules and being respectful than being mean and insulting. That way people will respect your decision more rather than be afraid that you will bite their heads off.

Edit:

I don't wanna sound like I'm trying to tell you guys what to do, it was just a suggestion and my opinion. I just thought it would help.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Well, I'll point this out to the other staff members. Consider your opinions noted, and thanks for the input.

 

[Reynald]

Thank you for taking the time to read and consider my views.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I'll leave this topic open for anyone else who has concerns regarding how the staff run the forums.

 

[Moose]

Personally as an individual, I've found this community more or less "seriously moderated". I've only been here for four days and I literally steer clear of posting anything that could be seen as "against the rules". While that's good and all as the intentions of rules are meant to restrict certain content-- it's restricting almost all my content that isn't even against the rules, but could be seen as such if a moderator were to "dissect" it.

The rules in general have thousands of loopholes. When does the spelling rule allow staff to become Grammar Nazi's, and then bash people that have difficult times speaking in English? Pokemon itself isn't just in English-- it's in over 20 different languages. I myself speak Portuguese as a native language and I sometimes find speaking in fluent English all the time difficult.

Should you ban someone, or give them a warning shot? Should you enforce a guideline even though it's only a small transgression and it probably wasn't intentional, or should you let it slide so that you don't appear tough, dictatorial, and uncompromising? This isn't a business forum from what I've seen-- it's a community. Telling those people off is reducing the community. Reducing the community is something that shouldn't be a main objective for PokeCharms.

Don't pin me down for speaking like this. You're free to run the community as you see fit-- nothing I say binds your morality or anything of the sort. But if things remain like this or possibly get worse, I won't be around here much anymore.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

Personally as an individual, I've found this community more or less "seriously moderated". I've only been here for four days and I literally steer clear of posting anything that could be seen as "against the rules". While that's good and all as the intentions of rules are meant to restrict certain content-- it's restricting almost all my content that isn't even against the rules, but could be seen as such if a moderator were to "dissect" it.

We're aware this is a serious issue in the forum. Currently, the staff are in discussion regarding how lax the rules should be. Hopefully, regarding this issue, people should see some changes.

The rules in general have thousands of loopholes. When does the spelling rule allow staff to become Grammar Nazi's, and then bash people that have difficult times speaking in English? Pokemon itself isn't just in English-- it's in over 20 different languages. I myself speak Portuguese as a native language and I sometimes find speaking in fluent English all the time difficult.

The point there is that this is a primarily English-speaking forum. If people aren't willing to even try to speak English, then why are they here?

Half of the time, though, it's people who can speak perfectly good English. They just don't, which perplexes me. It's not because all of the staff are being nazi about how people speak, it's because most members here get seriously annoyed about people who abuse grammar and try to make up decipher ridiculously butchered posts. In some cases, we've had to deal with people who "tipe liek dis 4 aygs an dnt haff ne intnshun of imprven".

Should you ban someone, or give them a warning shot? Should you enforce a guideline even though it's only a small transgression and it probably wasn't intentional, or should you let it slide so that you don't appear tough, dictatorial, and uncompromising? This isn't a business forum from what I've seen-- it's a community. Telling those people off is reducing the community. Reducing the community is something that shouldn't be a main objective for PokeCharms.

We actually have a warning system in operation now. Granted, it's not as efficient as the old one, but it's working and we keep track of members who are warned.

 

[Magpie]

I've been here for just under a year, and while it was the TCM that attracted me, I stayed because of the effective Mod system. Many of the forum's I'd seen, especially where Pokemon was concerned, had a very poor standard of posts, aka thirty-six or pages of people saying "I like Charizard," In answer to "What's your favourite Pokemon and why?" The mods keep up a fair standard of posts here, which I feel is refreshing.

From what I've seen, none of the Mods have ever been mean to anyone who they didn't warn first. I've always seen them try to set the member right first and act later. Members that tend to get the short end of the stick seem to be the ones who SPAM numerous boards in a very short amount of time, and in doing so need to be told a little more harshly to remember the rules.

I can see why maybe the Mods here can come across as stern, those coming from practically un-regulated forums must find it quite a shock. But I love Pokecharms and wouldn't have it any other way. I'd hate to see the standards go down hill for the sake of pleasantries.

The rules in general have thousands of loopholes. When does the spelling rule allow staff to become Grammar Nazi's, and then bash people that have difficult times speaking in English? Pokemon itself isn't just in English-- it's in over 20 different languages. I myself speak Portuguese as a native language and I sometimes find speaking in fluent English all the time difficult.

I can understand why this may sometimes be an issue, and in all fairness everyone slips up, even only-English speaking members like myself (My brain is incapable of learning other languages, much as I've tried).

 

[Doctor Oak]

Whenever anyone throws the "your site is too harshly moderated!" argument my way, I just laugh and point wildly in the direction of The Realm.

I can't think of any other forum like ours that actively gives members that would otherwise be banned instantly on the majority of the internet for just plain not bothering to take a minute to think - and then give them the chance to redeem themselves and improve.

I mean, there is some tone issues sometimes in the active moderation - but I don't think there's any room at all to complain about strictness here. You get asked to read the rules, if you don't, you're given a 'time-out' to get yourself in order. Most places'd just ban you on principle for breaking the first part.

 

[Linkachu]

I'll have to give this topic a more thorough look over later, but I have to say:

Half of the time, though, it's people who can speak perfectly good English. They just don't, which perplexes me. It's not because all of the staff are being nazi about how people speak, it's because most members here get seriously annoyed about people who abuse grammar and try to make up decipher ridiculously butchered posts. In some cases, we've had to deal with people who "tipe liek dis 4 aygs an dnt haff ne intnshun of imprven".

Seconded. On my part, I don't "grammar nazi" unless it's apparent to me that the poster just isn't trying. If they're using AOLer speak, it's fairly obvious that the issue does not lie with an inability to use the English language. They're simply abusing it out of laziness, and I reserve full right to speak out against it when it's straight out of the rules.

 

[112% Elusive]

It's true, most mods don't be seriously harsh unless the poster of something made the post a real eyesore. >>
(liek ppl taht talk liek dis.)
...I lost about 5 points of IQ right there.

Some people, can't understand chatspeak for the most part [like me] and can't really reply because we don't know the previous poster's reply. I agree with Katie here.

 

[Doctor Oak]

Also, considering the rampant abuse of grammar in this topic alone and the lack of any response, I think it's pretty safe to say we're not 'Grammar Nazis'.

 

[Reynald]

I'm fairly sure my grammar was correct. I had been re-reading it and editing like crazy. I'm not the greatest when it comes to grammar and spelling. So it usually takes a few edits and scans to find all the errors. That being said...

I never said you guys were too strict, just that your approach is a bit harsh is all. You can be strict and still be respectful to the person. But when your banning them it comes off negatively if you tell them to "Go Die Now" as I have seen in a few of the mods replies when the ban someone. That just doesn't appeal to the rest of the members, in my opinion.

And when you do give them a time out it seems to turn into an insult fight. Yes you're trying to help them but it does seem to come off in a very negative manner. I'm not saying STOP being strict, just be more respectful when it comes to dealing with them.

Because I do agree. The Moderators SHOULD be strict when it comes to really breaking the rules. But being strict and being rude are two different things. Shouldn't the mods set an example for how the other members should act? I'm not saying you guys are always mean and rude, just everyone really sees when you are and not so much when you guys aren't. This kind of scares the members, like ccb above, from posting in things for fear of being banned or n00b'd. Instead they should be respecting the mods and the mods' decisions right?

Though as I have said earlier, I can understand that sometimes patience runs out and tempers flare. Yet does that really give the mods an excuse to tell them to go die or other such insults as that? I mean couldn't you just tell them they are being immature and aren't allowed on the site and then ban them.

 

[Doctor Oak]

I'm fairly sure my grammar was correct. I had been re-reading it and editing like crazy.

Ironically, the majority of the offenders here are staff.

 

[Reynald]

Well that is very interesting. XD

 

[Linkachu]

Okay, had the chance to read this through.

Reynald: I admit that I do generally end my member warnings with "read the rules", even if there is a chance the member has already done such. For one, I don't have any way of figuring that out. For another, if a member actually had read the rules and was still making obvious mistakes - like double/triple posting - then I take it as a disregard for the rules. That's even worse than someone just not reading them, really. The rules aren't hard to follow, and if people can't understand them they should be the ones contacting us. Also, if the member is just too young to understand the rules, they shouldn't be on the forums at all (as stated when a member registers). And finally, if someone misunderstands the rules because they simply do not understand English that well... then they shouldn't have joined. This is an English website, whether unaccommodating or not, and people need to respect that.

As for ccb:

While that's good and all as the intentions of rules are meant to restrict certain content-- it's restricting almost all my content that isn't even against the rules, but could be seen as such if a moderator were to "dissect" it.

This is very vague, so would you be able to give examples of what you mean by restricting your content?

And that's about all I can say. I don't have a problem with being seen as "mean" when modding because I'm a blunt person from life experience. It might be harsh at times, but it gets the point across.

 

[Jeydis]

I have had the same concerns early on (as Linkachu and Alex could possibly remember) and discovered this harsh attitude is from the results of a past "noob" attack where the forum was spammed up terribly for a bit. That's what hardened the mods when it comes to new members.

As a major moderator on a very large site I can understand their feelings towards that and your feelings towards it as well. But honestly I have to say the system works pretty well since some new members are able to adapt to the community and join in. Members I can think of are Cody and Magpie who have elevated to pretty high popularity overall. Same with KoL. These guys all joined and where active after me and seem to be doing just fine. Now that I think about it since I myself joined after the noob attack and from what I can tell anyway am on decent terms with the mods, I would say the system works.

Its filtering essentially, its just a much tighter filter then what we are used to.

PS: I have to say the grammar nazi-ism is a little much though.

 

[Linkachu]

PS: I have to say the grammar nazi-ism is a little much though.

I'll say similar to you as I did to ccb. Please give examples of such that you've seen. Without solid examples, people who are being overly critical can't change, nor can they refute your statement if they honestly feel it's unfair.

I just really hope you're not trying to defend people for using "u" and "r" in replace of words.

 

[Yoshimitsu]

I'll say similar to you as I did to ccb. Please give examples of such that you've seen. Without solid examples, people who are being overly critical can't change, nor can they refute your statement if they honestly feel it's unfair.

I just really hope you're not trying to defend people for using "u" and "r" in replace of words.

Agreed. Otherwise, your claims have no basis in reality, and you're just criticising us for how we treat the more idiotic members.

Besides, I come out with words like 'srsly', so how anyone could accuse me of grammar nazi-ism is beyond me.

 

[KoL]

If I may add my two cents...

Although the 'Charms mods may seem harsh to n00bs, I think the fact that the Realm exists in the first place disproves that. Whilst some people do end up being instantly banned, it's never without reason, and it doesn't happen all that often. The fact that the n00bs are even given a second chance like this shows that the mods aren't as harsh as some may claim, and are willing to help out those who are new to forums in general.

Plus, I've been to forums where the mods don't crack down on rule-breakers, and it is anarchy. One forum I used to be a member of had mods/admins that did little more than lock spammy topics. People could flame, spam etc. to their hearts content without any fear of punishment because the mods were just plain lazy. I ended up leaving this forum due to the amount of idiots that plagued it, but not before leaving the mods a post in which I told them in no uncertain terms that they were a bunch of lazy bums and that, as a result, their forum was infested with n00bs, idiots and whiny children. I haven't harbored any ill feelings towards the 'Charms mods at all since I've been here, since they do their job at keeping the community in check whilst still being kind and helpful people when it comes down to it.

Although the way the mods treat n00bs may seem harsh, I've seen what happens when those n00bs are allowed to do what they want, and it caused me to forever leave a forum out of sheer disgust, where I was once a faithful member of the community. In contrast, I get along absolutely fine with the mods/admins on 'Charms, I enjoy my time here and have never once considered leaving.

Put simply, in this case, harsh = good. I'd much prefer the 'Charms mods to be too harsh than too lenient, and I don't consider them to be too harsh at all.

 

[Braiden]

I feel kind of both ways on this topic. When I first signed up, I decided to check out the realm because I wanted to see what people did wrong so as I could avoid doing something similar myself. I did feel that the Mods were incredibly harsh. Now I understand that the Mods do in fact need to be a little harsh to straighten the people out sometimes. The only thing I really do suggest for the Mods when it comes to easing up, is lighten up on the phrase "now go die." I've read many threads on this forum where the people that get n00b'd or banned receive a message somewhere along the lines of "This forum is not for Spamming or your type, now go die." That is definitely not something that would want a person to hear if they wanted to try and get back onto the regular forum. It kind of drives them away.

So except for that, I think the Mods do need to be harsh at times. Just lighten up on using the word "die."

 

[Magpie]

I can't be certain, since I don't 'see' the banning process, but I'm pretty sure when a Mod says 'Go die', they've already banned the member, like say in this topic:

http://www.pokecharms.com/forums/index.php?topic=5143.0

After realising how many rules the member had broken, Jet banned him. Therefore he, or any other Mod never said it to anyone who was going to make it out of the realm, or who could in fact read the message.

 

[Plapti]

Any time I say die in the Realm, I mean it figuratively, not in reality.

Also, about said member in the post, they made about three other accounts, so that's why he was IP Banned and such. He shouldn't be able to view the site.

And Magpie is right. They don't see the the post unless they make another account, which we then go to go ban as well when do make a second account. There's a space for a message to be shown to the banned member when they try to log into the site after they've been banned, showing them why they were banned. No where have I said die in any of those messages.

Most of the time, I specifically tell them what they did wrong and ban them. Unless the person isn't even making an attempt to fix their mistakes. They get the good old 'heave-ho' out of here. There's still a reason, although, it's usually a generic one by then.

 

[Braiden]

Actually, my complaint about saying "go die" wasn't fully for the member who was banned, although knowing that you say it after the banning makes more sense and is relieving. But the other part of me saying it was that any new member may randomly fall upon the post and it may scare them into not posting, which isn't the intention of anyone.

 

[KoL]

Actually, my complaint about saying "go die" wasn't fully for the member who was banned, although knowing that you say it after the banning makes more sense and is relieving. But the other part of me saying it was that any new member may randomly fall upon the post and it may scare them into not posting, which isn't the intention of anyone.

I lurked the boards for several weeks before I actually made my account, so I'd seen the way rule-breakers were treated long before I actually joined. This actually encouraged me to join even more, since it was a far cry from the old forum I mentioned in my previous post - the one which I had left because the mods/admins didn't do anything to stop rule-breakers. You bring up a valid point, but in my case, the mods/admins' firmness here actually did the opposite to what you said - they encouraged me to join, as opposed to putting me off.

 

[Reynald]

Now I understand that the Mods do in fact need to be a little harsh to straighten the people out sometimes. The only thing I really do suggest for the Mods when it comes to easing up, is lighten up on the phrase "now go die."

So except for that, I think the Mods do need to be harsh at times. Just lighten up on using the word "die."

This is what my original topic was about before everyone brought up other issues. I am not saying the Mods are too harsh or grammar nazis or any of that. I was simply stating that the delivery of their verdicts seemed a bit harsh and that tends to drive people away from wanting to post ideas for fear of attacks. That is not always the case as with King of Lucario but in general it is the case.

Again not saying that they should ease up or anything of the sort when it comes to should or should they not be punished. I was simply stating that their delivery could be a bit more respectful and less threatening than "Go Die Now" among other examples.

 

[Doctor Oak]

I think this is just going around in circles now. Thanks for the input, it has been taken into consideration and I'm sure it'll have some effect.

I'm locking this purely so it doesn't go on and on bashing out the same points again and again, but if anyone wants to contribute their own opinions on the matter, don't hesitate to contact an admin with a full, thought out PM. (Though, if you PM me, you'll probably not get an answer...)