Next Tournament Ideas

[KoL]

Since we've quite long ago established that Wi-Fi is no longer terrible and useless in Gen VI and the Pokemon Bank is available in just a few days, this topic is here for you to discuss what you want the first Gen VI-related tournament to be. Simple as.

So discuss away.

 

[Linkachu]

Most simplest suggestion: a tourney run under the latest VGC ruleset?

If that didn't fly with most people, I'd suggest a VGC13-ish ruleset with the addition of the new Kalos Pokemon and Mega Pokemon. I'd only blanket ban the three uber legendaries (Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde) and any Pokemon/Mega Pokemon that haven't been officially released yet. Thoughts?

I'm still not educated on all of the new held items but I'd assume that anything on the level of Soul Dew would need to be banned as well (if there actually is anything new like that).

 

[Teapot]

Something resembling VGC13/VGC14 would be my preference too.

 

[Awoken]

Monotype tournament, you can only use one type. (Secondary types will be allowed.) But only you choose the type, not us.

 

[KoL]

Funnily enough, the above I can confirm will be the next tournament set to take place immediately after the Singles Showdown has finished: Monotype Showdown 2014.

I figured I'd announce this here and now since it gives people more time to prepare and decide if they want to compete or not since it means the signup process won't have to take as long. It will, hence the name, be done on Pokemon Showdown again and be 6vs6 singles matches, the only difference from the previous tournament being, obviously, the monotype restriction.

Just one question is left to be asked for anyone wishing to compete: Do you want to be able to pick the type you want to use yourself, or would you prefer the type be picked at random for you? Note that in both cases, no two players will be allowed to use the same type, so it will come as a first-come first-served thing unless everyone objects to this.

 

[Shiny Motley]

I feel like random would be more fair I guess? I dunno XD

 

[Psycho Monkey]

I vote random. If we're left to pick our own and everyone is to have a different type, then we'd get a heads up as to what the competition is using if there are less than 18 competitors.

If it is not too early, may I suggest that the next tournament be Little Cup?

 

[Teapot]

I'm interested, and random seems fairest, otherwise chat regulars and the obsessives (*cough*@Kyubeon*cough*) would just camp their favourites.

 

[Ruko]

I vote for random typing as well, it keeps things far more interesting.

I have two points of concern I feel worth discussion here as well -
I'd like to suggest a ban of stealth rock for this tournament, since it takes typing directly into consideration for its damage and will heavily cripple the types weak to it from the get-go.
And I'd also like to bring up the topic of type-changing Megas - Charzard-X fits into a dragon mono-team only when transformed, and into a flying team only when not. How would this be looked at as passing/failing type requirements in everyones' eyes?

 

[Alexxander]

The monotype showdown seems cool enough that I may sign up. I think random types will be fairest though c:

Maybe have a triple battle tournament if available

 

[Shocari]

Totally up for monotype. Random or picked doesn't matter much to me as I have a monotype team for nearly every type right now, but I think I'd enjoy random a bit more.

 

[KoL]

I vote for random typing as well, it keeps things far more interesting.

I have two points of concern I feel worth discussion here as well -
I'd like to suggest a ban of stealth rock for this tournament, since it takes typing directly into consideration for its damage and will heavily cripple the types weak to it from the get-go.
And I'd also like to bring up the topic of type-changing Megas - Charzard-X fits into a dragon mono-team only when transformed, and into a flying team only when not. How would this be looked at as passing/failing type requirements in everyones' eyes?

Regarding the type changing: If a Pokemon has to Mega Evolve to fit into a mono-type team (e.g. Charizard X onto a Dragon-type team,) it cannot be used. Also, if a Pokemon would change to a type not including the one the mono-team is based on (Charizard evolving into MegaZard X on a Flying-type team) then the Mega Stone that would cause this cannot be used. Abilities and moves that cause temporary type change such as Protean, Camouflage and Transform are allowed however.

As for Stealth Rock, I'll think about it, although honestly for a tournament like this I don't want to be nitpicking specific bans just for it.

 

[Dwayna DragonFire]

I'm definitely interested in the monotype idea. I would prefer to use one of my favourites (ie. Dragon or Fire) but I suppose random would be the most fair (even if I got something like Water or Fairy type). I'll just have to cross my fingers for something I like in that case.

 

[Luckii]

Will there be a sign-up thread anywhere for the Monotype Showdown? Because that would be something I'd most certainly be interested in partaking in!

Am I also to presume that all competitive fixtures are to take place on Pokemon Showdown?

 

[Shiny Motley]

I feel like anything that allows a Pokemon to change its type, be it mega stones and the like so that the Pokemon doesn't fit into its respective monotype bill anymore, puts people at an unfair advantage. Perhaps a blanket ban over all type changes, including mega stones, abilities, and moves?

 

[Alexxander]

Yeah I think anything that changes type should be banned in monotype, I mean stuff like Protean Greninja could be abused so much and I don't think it's fair if some people have access to these type changes with their mono type and others don't such as someone with Fire types

 

[Linkachu]

I feel like anything that allows a Pokemon to change its type, be it mega stones and the like so that the Pokemon doesn't fit into its respective monotype bill anymore, puts people at an unfair advantage. Perhaps a blanket ban over all type changes, including mega stones, abilities, and moves?

I'm not necessarily competing but, after considering it myself, I think I agree with this mentality too. If we have a blanket ban on any abilities or moves that change a Pokemon's type then it's a pretty clean cut ruling. That bans Protean, Color Change, Conversion, Conversion 2, and Camoflauge, and situations where a Mega Evolution changes the Pokemon to a typing that doesn't match your Mono-type team.

Regarding Stealth Rock, I can see where Ruko's coming from so I think I'd be behind banning that particular move too if others agree as well.

 

[Ruko]

I feel like anything that allows a Pokemon to change its type, be it mega stones and the like so that the Pokemon doesn't fit into its respective monotype bill anymore, puts people at an unfair advantage. Perhaps a blanket ban over all type changes, including mega stones, abilities, and moves?

I've already expressed my concern for protean and megas, but I'm for a blanket ban as it's simpler to add and explain "Anything which will change your pokemon's typing outside of your designated mono-type is prohibited"

 

[KoL]

I've already expressed my concern for protean and megas, but I'm for a blanket ban as it's simpler to add and explain "Anything which will change your pokemon's typing outside of your designated mono-type is prohibited"

We'll see what other players think regarding type-changing moves/abilities and Stealth Rock, but regarding this blanket ban I will draw the line at Impostor purely on the grounds that it effectively bans Ditto outright for Normal-type teams (and no-one's going to use non-Impostor Ditto anyway,) and I don't want to get an entire Pokemon removed from the tournament over something like this.

Honestly, between Taunt, Defog and secondary typing use on Fire and Flying especially, I'm not seeing Stealth Rock as being an overly threatening thing here.

 

[Alexxander]

My only concern about banning Stealth Rock is that Flying types will essentially get a free ride when it comes to entry hazards.

 

[Ruko]

... and I don't want to get an entire Pokemon removed from the tournament over something like this.

Unfortunately, Kecleon would be banned if you accepted the statement I gave above. Both of its abilities cause its type to change.


I'll break down my concern for stealth rock into a few points.

1. My concern for flying isn't as great because they have plentiful access to defog, enough said here.
   
2. Fire is my biggest concern as it has only one rapid spinner that I'm aware of and that's Torkoal. Torkoal isn't outright bad but he's far from ideal to take up a slot on your team in my opinion. Next to that comes Charizard and Moltres with Defog, both of whom would lose half of their HP immediately before getting the chance to blow it away. As for dual types, fire has only three pokemon [Camerupt, Infernape and Emboar] who take neutral damage since Blaziken is banned.
   
3. My concern for bug falls somewhere in between the above two, because they have two very reliable spinners[Forretress/Armaldo], but the type is also overrun with pokemon who lose half of their health immediately to stealth rock including some of the best contenders [Volcarona, Shedinja, Pinsir].
4. Finally on the list of weaknesses comes Ice. Ice has only one pokemon neutral to the damage and two spinners excluding Delibird. Defog here comes at the same price as with fire, Articuno losing half of its health upon being sent in.
5. And the final point being that, most of these types would -probably- lose if paired against a rock team. That's normal type dominance, the problem in my eyes arises when any of these face a team which they should be equally matched against and then end up doing nothing but battling stealth rock because nearly every mono-type can run stealth rock.

 

[KoL]

After some deliberation I've decided that Stealth Rock should definitely stay, mainly on the grounds that having to deal with teams running Talonflame and Charizard Y without SR available will be much worse than having to deal with floating rocks. With that in mind, I can't see there being any noteworthy benefit in banning SR since all it does is make something more specific a lot more threatening.

So, with that I confirm Stealth Rock is NOT banned from use.

 

[Rex]

For what it's worth, I'm in agreement with Ruko. A blanket ban on things that induce Type Changing should be included. It's hardly Mono-Type if one or more Pokemon in the team can change their types at will. And it's not fair to, say, tell the Flying and Dragon Monos that they can't use 'Zard X, but the Water and Dark Monos are a-okay to use Protean Greninja, which will almost never be a Water Type or a Dark Type, because Protean Greninja is made to counter common weaknesses to both of said types.

This ban would only completely deny Ditto and Kecleon. Castform's Forecast means that it would likely also have to go in case anyone runs weather. Protean would be out, but Greninja could technically run Torrent. This would also ban Camouflage, Reflect Type, and Conversion. Three Pokemon, Three Abilities, Three Moves. Hardly a debilitating blow against Battlers, who will still have well over 600 Pokemon to choose from.

As far as Stealth Rock is concerned, I am also in agreement with Ruko. I noticed you mentioning Talonflame in chat, but Rock moves are plentiful amongst Non-Rock Types, to my knowledge, so Stealth Rock is hardly the only counter to it. Plus, as Ruko mentioned, it completely ruins a number of other teams, and there is absolutely nothing stopping Stealth Rocks from being put down again once the Defog or Rapid Spin user are KO'd, again, to my knowledge. Once again, it is not fair to the rest of the teams that Stealth Rock should stay because Talonflame and 'Zard Y are scary Fire/Flying Types.

 

[KoL]

Talonflame is strong enough to basically be an I Win Button against any team type it can draw super-effective against. Giving Fire a free win against anything is far worse than Stealth Rock being there, especially since Bug has been pointed out as being vulnerable to Stealth Rock yet removing it would basically fuck it over completely against Fire or Flying. Saying it "completely ruins" entire teams is basically a lie when Flying has a ton of secondary types to cushion the weakness, Fire's offensive options make up for a defensive weakness brought on by SR and Bug ends up being denied its best defense against the former two for a reprieve over an entry hazard. Also, considering Item Clause isn't a thing in this, Flying can basically spam Focus Sashes with impunity since the only hazard that can damage it would be banned.

This point is not debatable; Stealth Rock is staying.

As for Kecleon and Ditto, I'm willing to debate this considering it's not a matter of balance and more a matter of being in the spirit of the tournament. I'd rather not render anything completely unusable however due to rules such as these in case the person who draws Normal would like to use either of these Pokemon but finds themselves unable to due to a blanket ban.

 

[Ruko]

Stealth rock stays, fire is screwed. But suddenly fire is super overpowered if stealth rock leaves? More than that I'm just against the attitude of "No, this is final I don't care that three people have been for the idea one person has been arguably neutral"

 

[KoL]

As I said, I looked into the issue to investigate whether other monotype metas ban Stealth Rock or not, and what the result is. The result I found is that Talonflame is still extremely powerful even with Stealth Rock there, to the point where Smogon ended up banning Talonflame, even with Stealth Rock legal. Regardless of whether their choice was correct, Fire can't have been that "screwed" for Talonflame to get punted from monotype in an SR-legal environment.

It's all fine saying reasons why it should be banned, but there's plenty of reasons why it shouldn't that no-one seemed to consider here, and I feel that between both there's no gain in banning Stealth Rock.

Also:

As for dual types, fire has only four pokemon [Camerupt, Infernape, Heatran and Emboar] who take neutral damage since Blaziken is banned.

Fix'd

Bottom line is this: I'm fine with debate, but regardless of who says what I am not banning a move based on hyperbole that doesn't address both sides of the issue.

 

[Ruko]

I can say I don't believe Fire should be the focus, but flying. Even with no stealth rock weakening them, fire has a general lack of bulk outside of heatran [torkoal is somewhat bulky as well]. Flying gets both Zard Y and Talonflame, which apparently are the biggest concern of stealth rock and I don' t really have anything to say about that side of the coin - I already said flying teams can handle stealth rock fine. While I don't think they're overpowered with it removed, I have no experience in the matter.
Fire and Bug mono-type, on the other hand, I have made and played plenty of in the standard OU metagame on showdown, and I know how powerful of an influence both have and the importance of removing it as well as the crippling blow a fire team takes for holding a spinning Torkoal that can't recover and has no real presence left to fight after using rapid spin.

And yes, I overlooked Heatran above :x

 

[KoL]

I debate whether Fire needs defensive options in this scenario honestly when it has two of the most powerful attackers in the game that require no prior setup at all (Zard Y and Talonflame) and it's not like you can't just go pure glass cannon with it. From what I've gathered Flying is universally considered one of the best monotypes even with Stealth Rock present due to its secondary type versatility and Talonflame all but checkmating Bug, Grass and Fighting in a way no other type (or Pokemon) can manage. Removing SR would, on top of that, grant them free reign to spam Focus Sashes at leisure since there'd be no entry hazards that can damage them, and to me a monotype without SR would unquestionably make Flying the best type.

At the end of the day, yes Stealth Rock hurts certain types, but with or without it some types will always be better than others, and I feel the types are balanced better with it there.

 

[Alexxander]

I'm fine with Stealth Rock being in, it just means playing certain types more carefully than others. Just try and make sure your opponent can't set up rocks or just play more strategically. I understand SR could potentially cost the match but you just got to learn to deal with it. I mean without it Flying would run rampant I mean there are a lot of good Pokemon in that type with a large range of secondary types. Togekiss, Talonflame/Char Y, MegaAero, Skarm are just a few. If somehow this point gets argued to where SR does get banned I think it would be best just to boot Talonflame and maybe Char Y.

Just prepare a strategy to deal with rock using teams of any type. Maybe do a few practice matches before to see if your team can deal with them.

As for the issue regarding Ditto and Kecleon, I'd let these two slide but I'm not sure how much they would be used. If people have a problem with them then ban them because limiting them (i.e. Kecleon with only Normal moves) would cripple them too much

 

[KoL]

Another Pokemon I've realized is affected by the "no type changing" rule is Castform with its Forecast ability.

Here's where we are now: These abilities and moves all directly change a Pokemon's type:

- Protean
- Colour Change
- Forecast
- Impostor
- Transform
- Conversion
- Conversion 2
- Camouflage
- Reflect Type
- Soak

As far as I can recall that's it. Note that banning Forecast bans Castform, banning Impostor and Transform bans Ditto, and banning Protean and Colour Change bans Kecleon. So, it's up to you guys which of these moves stay and which go, and unlike the Stealth Rock issue this one is just a matter of opinion so it's entirely up to you.

 

[Alexxander]

I think Forecast, Colour Change and Imposter should be allowed the rest should be banned. I don't really think Castform, Ditto or Kecleon are as threatening as stuff like Protean Greninja. I don't think Pokemon should be outright banned if they're not all that threatening. They aren't exactly as powerful as banned Mons. I doubt anyone would want these 3 banned unless they're purists

 

[Rex]

They should all go. It's not fair to just ban Protean when it's not the only issue. If it changes your type, you shouldn't be able to use it.

 

[Shiny Motley]

I agree with Rex here. It doesn't feel right to ban one thing while the others can stay. Even if they're not powerful Pokemon, it's still not fair to ban one out of the others.

 

[KoL]

Just to remove it from anyone's decision making, from an objective standpoint none of these moves create any sort of balance issue, so anything saying they're "overpowered" or "imbalanced" is complete bullshit anyway. All that matters is whether you feel they go against the spirit of what Monotype is meant to be, which many people do. Whichever moves the majority feel are most problematic (maybe even all of them) are the ones that will go.

 

[Linkachu]

For the record, from an objective standpoint none of these moves create any sort of balance issue, so anything saying they're "overpowered" or "imbalanced" is complete bullshit anyway. All that matters is whether you feel they go against the spirit of what Monotype is meant to be, which many people do. Whichever moves the majority feel are most problematic (maybe even all of them) are the ones that will go.

I agree entirely.

I hadn't been thinking about Kecleon when I initially posted but I share the feelings that if one of them goes, all of them should go just to be fair.

That being said... I'm biased and I like Ditto. If people said "ban everything but Imposter Ditto" I'd be 100% behind such a decision. Otherwise, in the spirit of Mono-type actually being Mono-type, ban 'em all I say. xp

 

[Ruko]

All that matters is whether you feel they go against the spirit of what Monotype is meant to be, which many people do.

Pretty much this, and I am against most of the above for that reason.

I do have to say that I don't think moves which change your opponent's typing should be banned however, which is limited to Soak as far as I know [Forest Curse / Trick or Treat just add the typing, not change it, right?]

 

[KoL]

It is just Soak. Forest's Curse and Trick or Treat simply add Grass and Ghost to your initial typing, so you'll retain your monotype choice. I only added Soak to the list for the sake of completion.

 

[Luckii]

I say we ban everything that involves a change in type. They go against the whole idea of a monotype tournament, and people would just abuse them.

 

[Awoken]

@KoL you forgot one move. Trick-or-Treat turns you into a ghost type.

 

[KoL]

@KoL you forgot one move. Trick-or-Treat turns you into a ghost type.

Except it doesn't. It just adds a Ghost-type to the opponent's pre-existing type - which is what I just said regarding why it doesn't count.

It helps to read stuff sometimes you know.