Private/Closed Naruto AU RP: discussion

[Godjacob]

I bring that into question then. Kumo is in a really shitty location in the mountains so to say they are wealthier or have a greater economy than the Leaf feels so soo wrong. Same with Iwa in the rocky canyons.

Then again it also ranks Iwa as having a stronger military than Konoha which is pure garbage so I have issues with databooks in general.

 

[kyuukestu]

Thaaat or there a shitload of inflation going on and several million Ryo is only pocket change.

 

[Godjacob]

Wealth doesn't really equal a good economy though.

Most Jonin have hundreds of A and S ranked missions under their belts, and those missions always give upwards of several hundred thousand to millions of ryo in rewards.

But as you've noticed, none of the Ninja in the series are exactly spend thrifts. Where all this money goes? Idk, but certainly not into their economy.

They probably have a buttload of completely stagnant wealth where they just have money rotting in a corner somewhere.

Considering how prosperous Konoha and most villages in the Land of Fire seem to be and we don't have people begging on the streets like the Land of Waves I don't think the money is being just wasted.

 

[kyuukestu]

I bring that into question then. Kumo is in a really shitty location in the mountains so to say they are wealthier or have a greater economy than the Leaf feels so soo wrong. Same with Iwa in the rocky canyons.

Then again it also ranks Iwa as having a stronger military than Konoha which is pure garbage so I have issues with databooks in general.

Kumo has many hot-springs, which make it a tourist location. They also likely have wealth in metallic ores.

Iwa has rock-rain, which is a tourist attraction, as well as Iwa rock cakes which are also a tourist attraction.

The methods through which each nation generates income isn't all that detailed, but it seems to be mostly tourism...for some reason. I chalk it up to really shitty government and poor leaders. I refer to the Feudal Lords and not the Kage's as the Feudal Lords are responsible for the country itself.

It could also be that taxation is very high. There was one filler where the Capital was shown and Konoha looks like a wooden shack compared to it. These are feudal times so I suppose there's a very uneven distribution of wealth.

 

[kyuukestu]

Considering how prosperous Konoha and most villages in the Land of Fire seem to be and we don't have people begging on the streets like the Land of Waves I don't think the money is being just wasted.

It's not being wasted, but it's not exactly being used for the betterment of the people either.

Again I would mostly chalk that up to the deficiencies in the feudal system which means most of the wealth goes to Landed Nobles because they heavily tax those under them.

 

[Godjacob]

Kumo has many hot-springs, which make it a tourist location. They also likely have wealth in metallic ores.

So does Konoha. Like, a lot of them. It's what Jiraiya does to get material.

Iwa has rock-rain, which is a tourist attraction, as well as Iwa rock cakes which are also a tourist attraction.

Are you trying to say the Land of Fire, with its ninja village having a Mt. Rushmore equivalent, has no tourist attractions of its own?

The methods through which each nation generates income isn't all that detailed, but it seems to be mostly tourism...for some reason. I chalk it up to really shitty government and poor leaders. I refer to the Feudal Lords and not the Kage's as the Feudal Lords are responsible for the country itself.

It could also be that taxation is very high. There was one filler where the Capital was shown and Konoha looks like a wooden shack compared to it. These are feudal times so I suppose there's a very uneven distribution of wealth.

There is literally never any mention of high taxes or feudal lords being shady with the distribution of wealth in the entire series or even the idea of that being an issue ever.

 

[kyuukestu]

So does Konoha. Like, a lot of them. It's what Jiraiya does to get material.

I suppose it's the quality then, *shrugs*

Are you trying to say the Land of Fire, with its ninja village having a Mt. Rushmore equivalent, has no tourist attractions of its own?

No, but I am suggesting that people don't go to ninja villages to find tourist attractions :T
Well, even that statement is iffy as the ninja villages don't seem to impose too strict a control on their gates.

For whatever reason, tourist attractions in other nations are more significant. Personally, I'd go to see it rain rocks over a hot spring any day. Hot springs aren't exactly something I'm gonna travel half way across the continent for.

There is literally never any mention of high taxes or feudal lords being shady with the distribution of wealth in the entire series or even the idea of that being an issue ever.

It's more a Function of the feudal system itself.

Tax rates of 30-50% would've been considered normal, and most of this was paid in arable produce because the number of skilled works wasn't terribly high. Most people farmed the Land or reared crops and then most of that went to their Lords while the rest was for their own sustenance.

The distribution of wealth is set to be uneven from the get-go, where Landed Nobles are stupid rich while their subjects are generally not as well off.

 

[Godjacob]

I suppose it's the quality then, *shrugs*

That smells of garbage.

For whatever reason, tourist attractions in other nations are more significant. Personally, I'd go to see it rain rocks over a hot spring any day. Hot springs aren't exactly something I'm gonna travel half way across the continent for.

Yeah rock rain is nice but it is a far cry to say this justifies Iwa having such an economic "edge" of Konoha despite their natural lack of resources they'd face along with a lack of trade partners given their isolationist nature. Plus I just named one example in the main village there are plenty of attractions across the vast Land of Fire that would bring in interesting eyes.

It's more a Function of the feudal system itself.

Tax rates of 30-50% would've been considered normal, and most of this was paid in arable produce because the number of skilled works wasn't terribly high. Most people farmed the Land or reared crops and then most of that went to their Lords while the rest was for their own sustenance.

The distribution of wealth is set to be uneven from the get-go, where Landed Nobles are stupid rich while their subjects are generally not as well off.

Yet only Konoha has that as a negative? Like Kumo & Iwa are fine but Konoha is the one where the same feudal system exists for all of them? Feels like a leap given that we have zero canon evidence that this is even a thing or that's how it works in the context of Naruto.

I personally think the databooks should not be taken as gospel and its rankings are to be taken with a major grain of salt rather than try to retroactively twist the narrative to make it fit within those rankings.

 

[kyuukestu]

That smells of garbage.



Yeah rock rain is nice but it is a far cry to say this justifies Iwa having such an economic "edge" of Konoha despite their natural lack of resources they'd face along with a lack of trade partners given their isolationist nature. Plus I just named one example in the main village there are plenty of attractions across the vast Land of Fire that would bring in interesting eyes.



Yet only Konoha has that as a negative? Like Kumo & Iwa are fine but Konoha is the one where the same feudal system exists for all of them? Feels like a leap given that we have zero canon evidence that this is even a thing or that's how it works in the context of Naruto.

I personally think the databooks should not be taken as gospel and its rankings are to be taken with a major grain of salt rather than try to retroactively twist the narrative to make it fit within those rankings.

Uh wait, hold up...I lied.

I just checked to find evidence and every nation is a 2/5, save for Kumo.

 

[Godjacob]

Kenji: Holy shit we're rich!

Okay and those rankings are garbage. Kumo should not have such a logical advantage. They have the second worst location to make a village behind Suna with also a lack of trade partners and their one tourist attraction being matched by the Leaf.

 

[Shen: King of Digimon]

I think we all can agree Suna is the worst by economy by far. They live off of tribute from the leaf to stay afloat

 

[Godjacob]

I think we all can agree Suna is the worst by economy by far. They live off of tribute from the leaf to stay afloat

Yeah, and I want to expand on Suna to make them somewhat sustainable as a nation (Somehow) cause they are one of my favorites and being reminded they suck so much always breaks my heart XD

-----Edit-----

What they need is some great river, like the Nile River, that can provide both an abundance of that resource along with some vegetation along the beds. Maybe make them a bit innovative and have them convert desert sand or materials into a more valuable ore or something along with some wind-powered generators to increase self-sustaining elements and take advantage of their climate. Something anything.

 

[kyuukestu]

Kenji: Holy shit we're rich!

Okay and those rankings are garbage. Kumo should not have such a logical advantage. They have the second worst location to make a village behind Suna with also a lack of trade partners and their one tourist attraction being matched by the Leaf.

Kumo's advantage is actually pretty logical when you consider they've got the most access to ore and they're located next to the sea which means what trade they do perform is cost-effective.

They'd have easy access to all the same trading partners Konoha would, save for Sunagakure and those landlocked nations. In fact, because of their coastal location their trade should be somewhat superior to Konoha's because sea routes are cheaper than land routes.

Furthermore, Kumo is described as mountainous but not desolate like Iwa.

They're described as having many rivers, and that's rather important. It means cheaper transport throughout the country and sources of water for crops.

There are likely a couple valleys running through the country such as the Valley of Cloud and Lightning, and if they happen to be river valleys they'll be very suitable for produce crops. The main point is still the rivers though. Rivers are a boon to civilization, in fact many ancient civilizations were supported by their respective rivers; Mesopotamia -Tigris & Euphrates, Egypt - Nile, China - Yellow River, etc.

I would agree that Konoha is more readily settled, but Kumo doesn't have the worst location by far.

With the frequency of wars those mountains are also a fairly good deterrent against invasions, which is why most battles would've been fought on the low-lying areas e.g. Ame and Kusa.

War is probably the most important factor as to why Konoha isn't comparable to Kuma. Konoha is a central power, they're between all the nations and as a result have fought with all the nations over the past 3 Ninja wars.

We know that they fought Kumo in the 1st ninja war

We also know that they fought Suna, Ame and Iwa in the Second Ninja war.

We also know they fought Iwa, and had some skirmished with Suna, Kumo and Kiri in the third War.

Not quite sure who Kumo was fighting during these wars, but because of their location its unlikely that they would've had as many enemies to fight as Konoha, meaning the burden of war on them would've been less.

War also plays a critical part because War need weapons, and Kumo is the country with the most capacity to produce them. Their economy would get boons from the sale of weapons and ore during times of peace, and as for times of war...well all trade would've halted so they wouldn't have ended up any worst than the other nations.

America for one good huge boons to their economy from selling weapons to the allies during the world wars before they'd joined the wars themself.

 

[Godjacob]

Kumo's advantage is actually pretty logical when you consider they've got the most access to ore and they're located next to the sea which means what trade they do perform is cost-effective.

They'd have easy access to all the same trading partners Konoha would, save for Sunagakure and those landlocked nations. In fact, because of their coastal location their trade should be somewhat superior to Konoha's because sea routes are cheaper than land routes.

Furthermore, Kumo is described as mountainous but not desolate like Iwa.

They're described as having many rivers, and that's rather important. It means cheaper transport throughout the country and sources of water for crops.

There are likely a couple valleys running through the country such as the Valley of Cloud and Lightning, and if they happen to be river valleys they'll be very suitable for produce crops. The main point is still the rivers though. Rivers are a boon to civilization, in fact many ancient civilizations were supported by their respective rivers; Mesopotamia -Tigris & Euphrates, Egypt - Nile, China - Yellow River, etc.

I would agree that Konoha is more readily settled, but Kumo doesn't have the worst location by far.

With the frequency of wars those mountains are also a fairly good deterrent against invasions, which is why most battles would've been fought on the low-lying areas e.g. Ame and Kusa.

War is probably the most important factor as to why Konoha isn't comparable to Kuma. Konoha is a central power, they're between all the nations and as a result have fought with all the nations over the past 3 Ninja wars.

We know that they fought Kumo in the 1st ninja war

We also know that they fought Suna, Ame and Iwa in the Second Ninja war.

We also know they fought Iwa, and had some skirmished with Suna, Kumo and Kiri in the third War.

Not quite sure who Kumo was fighting during these wars, but because of their location its unlikely that they would've had as many enemies to fight as Konoha, meaning the burden of war on them would've been less.

War also plays a critical part because War need weapons, and Kumo is the country with the most capacity to produce them. Their economy would get boons from the sale of weapons and ore during times of peace, and as for times of war...well all trade would've halted so they wouldn't have ended up any worst than the other nations.

America for one good huge boons to their economy from selling weapons to the allies during the world wars before they'd joined the wars themself.

This goes on the assumption that Kumo trades with people to take advantage of that. They seemed just as isolationist as Iwa does and don't have great relations with the rest of the ninja world.

Plus Konoha does have coastal routes as well being in the epicenter of greater land trade routes and the only nation to actually have confirmed trading partners and not be on thin terms with the rest of the world. Plus Pain specifically mentioned that Konoha went to war to help sustain itself and provide a rich income so if anything the many wars (That they all won) would only have benefited the nation as Pain mentioned how they profited off of it.

 

[kyuukestu]

This goes on the assumption that Kumo trades with people to take advantage of that. They seemed just as isolationist as Iwa does and don't have great relations with the rest of the ninja world.

Plus Konoha does have coastal routes as well being in the epicenter of greater land trade routes and the only nation to actually have confirmed trading partners and not be on thin terms with the rest of the world. Plus Pain specifically mentioned that Konoha went to war to help sustain itself and provide a rich income so if anything the many wars (That they all won) would only have benefited the nation as Pain mentioned how they profited off of it.

• Kumo is isolationist
• Suna wasn't their ally until post 2nd or 3rd war (Suna doens't have much to offer them anyways)
• Iwa is isolationist
• Kiri is....Kiri?
• Ame hasn't liked Konoha since the 2nd war
• Taki is a very militaristic nation; they're known for doing 'training exercises' and using the opportunity to invade other nations. (Filler arc)
• Oto is Orochimaru
• Uzushio got destroyed

With all these nations being Isolationist or on bad terms, Konoha would barely have anyone to trade with.


So lets go off the assumption that they do trade (Though we must first make the distinction that we're referring to the Land of Lightning and Fire and not Kumogakure and Konohagakure the Ninja Villages)

The Land of Fire has naval trade to the Land of Water, Whirlpools, Hot Waters, Rivers, and that tiny nation right beside Kumo...

Since the only great nation among those is the Land of Water, we'll take about them first. I don't really see why they would Favor The Land of Fire over the Land of Lightning. The Land of Fire might be a more readily available trading partner though, so I guess that'd have that going for them.

Save for the Land of Rivers, the Land of Lightning has access to all of those nations and more sea ports to boot, along with easier transport to the sea because of their rivers. The cost of transporting things from within the Land of Fire, to their eastern boarder, and then to put it on a sea route means that their trade still wouldn't be as profitable as the Land of Lightning's.

Land Routes are a thing though, but there are only 5 Nations that the Land of Fire has access to from the Land, that the Land of Lightning doesn't have access to from the Sea.

As for the case of the War...

I'll note here that I'm not making an argument for Land of Lightning benefits more than Land of Fire during war, but instead Land of Fire loses more than the Land of Lightning during war. Because they would've waged war with more people, and they didn't really take land or anything so it's not like they received immense benefits. Perhaps war reparations were a thing, but I doubt Konoha would push for them. Even when they had the advantage during war they hardly ever pushed to squeeze the most out of it.

It should also be noted that the Land of Fire won its wars...but that's not to say the Land of Lightning lost its wars. They perhaps lost the first war against Konoha. (We don't really know too much about the ending of that war, but considering Kumo killed the Second Hokage, I wouldn't say Konoha managed to stomp them or anything.)

The Land of Lightning didn't seem to play a huge role in the Second War, so their losses from the War would've been less than the Land of Fire's since the Land of Fire had been battling Suna, Ame, and Iwa.

The 3rd Shinobi war has the Land of Fire taking on almost all the other Great nations at one point or another, so I can't see the Land of Lightning coming out of that war worst than the Land of Fire. Not too sure if Suna was fighting the Land of Fire as well, so we'll call it 4/5 Great nations were fighting the Land of Fire.

 

[Godjacob]

With all these nations being Isolationist or on bad terms, Konoha would barely have anyone to trade with.

Same goes for Kumo, you can't just argue they have better trading terms with the rest of the world because of old beef when they've had no training partners and as I said earlier seem to be also on bad terms with the other nations.

And my argument is that Konoha didn't lose anything in the wars (Apart from individual causalities) and based on Pain's account only made tremendous gains.

 

[kyuukestu]

Same goes for Kumo, you can't just argue they have better trading terms with the rest of the world because of old beef when they've had no training partners and as I said earlier seem to be also on bad terms with the other nations.

And my argument is that Konoha didn't lose anything in the wars (Apart from individual causalities) and based on Pain's account only made tremendous gains.

I can agree to call trade a null for both nations, but Konoha not losing anything in the Wars is impossible.

War on it's own costs a tremendous amount of money; and the War Nagato speaks of is the 2nd Shinobi War, which he stated was started by Konoha.

The First Shinobi was was stated to have left all the nations is bad shape. That would go for both Kumo and Konoha so we don't need to look at this one.

The second Shinobi was was one which ended favorably for Konoha, but they still would've faced a lot of burden from fighting 3 different Nations. (Kumo also doesn't have a strong presence in this War so it's hard to say where they were left after it.) The war wouldn't have ended so favorably as to give Konoha a huge boost. In fact, I wouldn't call it immense benefits because the Third Shinobi War was stated to have started because the 5 Great Nations were weakening and conflicts with other nations eventually escalated into all-out war. (From the Data Books, so you're free to doubt.)

The Third Ninja war saw confirmed skirmished between Konoha and every single other Great Nation except Suna. It should also be noted that Konoha wasn't winning for most of the war. They were in fact losing against Iwa until Team Minato stepped in and single handed turned the whole situation around.

They were probably getting their asses handed to them by Kumo too because the situation got so bad team Minato had to be split so Minato could wipe their asses. (And I mean...do you really think A and Killer B, with LCM and being a perfect Jinchuriki respectively, wouldn't have dominated their battlefields?)

Not too sure about the Mist side, so I'll call that a stalemate. The battles were likely fought on Konoha land though so they would've bore most of the collateral damage.

 

[kyuukestu]

The Third Ninja War is also the War where Sasori gained his Epithet, Sasori of the Red Sand...but I don't really know who Suna was fighting so...

 

[Retro Master]

Oml Nebby is on! Hello!

Edit: Was* on

Also, how does the criminal underworld function? We know it exists cuz of Gato with Zabuza and Haku. The Mujina bandits from Boruto as well. They tried robbing a large bank or something lmao! There was also the wealthy people in the Sasuke Shinden who gathered and took part in the ninja slave trade type system. Non-shinobi like Gato probably used their wealth and underhanded tactics to gain power. I also don’t think it would be surprising if the feudal lords did behind the back dealings. They always seemed a bit fishy to me.

 

[Shen: King of Digimon]

Oml Nebby is on! Hello!

Edit: Was* on

Also, how does the criminal underworld function? We know it exists cuz of Gato with Zabuza and Haku. The Mujina bandits from Boruto as well. They tried robbing a large bank or something lmao! There was also the wealthy people in the Sasuke Shinden who gathered and took part in the ninja slave trade type system. Non-shinobi like Gato probably used their wealth and underhanded tactics to gain power. I also don’t think it would be surprising if the feudal lords did behind the back dealings. They always seemed a bit fishy to me.

They seem the type to constantly be plotting and back stab each other all the while shaking each other’s hands

 

[kyuukestu]

Oml Nebby is on! Hello!

Edit: Was* on

Also, how does the criminal underworld function? We know it exists cuz of Gato with Zabuza and Haku. The Mujina bandits from Boruto as well. They tried robbing a large bank or something lmao! There was also the wealthy people in the Sasuke Shinden who gathered and took part in the ninja slave trade type system. Non-shinobi like Gato probably used their wealth and underhanded tactics to gain power. I also don’t think it would be surprising if the feudal lords did behind the back dealings. They always seemed a bit fishy to me.

They seem to be isolated groups who specialize in certain types of crimes; robbery, human trafficking, extortion etc.

They seem the type to constantly be plotting and back stab each other all the while shaking each other’s hands

Sooo, it's just like politics that xD

 

[kyuukestu]

If anything we can re-organize the stats of the nations, it shouldn't take too long to debate such nations should have which stats. Though, I'm of the opinion major changes to stats should be outlined, at the very least, in RP.

Which is why I argue with Shen constantly over the Mist's stats despite their AU changes.

 

[Shen: King of Digimon]

If anything we can re-organize the stats of the nations, it shouldn't take too long to debate such nations should have which stats. Though, I'm of the opinion major changes to stats should be outlined, at the very least, in RP.

• Which is why I argue with Shen constantly over the Mist's stats despite their AU changes.

Justifiably

 

[Godjacob]

If anything we can re-organize the stats of the nations, it shouldn't take too long to debate such nations should have which stats. Though, I'm of the opinion major changes to stats should be outlined, at the very least, in RP.

Which is why I argue with Shen constantly over the Mist's stats despite their AU changes.

I would love to re-organize that cause I have many many issues with how the databooks handle it and it would work in the context of our AU better cause it is our story.

 

[Grand Master Koop]

What did I miss?

 

[Godjacob]

Military/Economy debate of the nations.

 

[kyuukestu]

Then with that in mind, I propose we look at all the nations and choose their stats.

Since the Data-booklets use an out of 5 system, I'd say we use an out of 10 system, but the initial hard-limit for any stat is 5. Following that, 6-10 would be for improvements made in the Role Play itself.

I'll keep track of these stats in my written works. So everything we discuss will eventually be documented there for reference.

 

[Godjacob]

Konoha should have the best military in my humble view on a ranking system. Their many victories in all the world wars combined with more major "bingo book" players on top of the nameless extras balanced out by other nations nameless extras.

Course doesn't mean the other nations are punks (Nor do I want them to be dear Kami) but yeah just my view.

 

[kyuukestu]

That assumes we make the Military...not complete fodder.

Cause the way it is in canon is Konoha fodder is like, the worst fodder. They don't really do much of note besides getting punked by kids who can't even pass the academy exams. But their named characters are exceptionally powerful and basically carry the fight on their backs.

 

[Shen: King of Digimon]

That assumes we make the Military...not complete fodder.

Cause the way it is in canon is Konoha fodder is like, the worst fodder. They don't really do much of note besides getting punked by kids who can't even pass the academy exams. But their named characters are exceptionally powerful and basically carry the fight on their backs.

Meanwhile mist fodder caught a jinchurki XD

 

[Retro Master]

Meanwhile mist fodder caught a jinchurki XD

Mist fodder is the superior fodder!

 

[Godjacob]

That assumes we make the Military...not complete fodder.

Cause the way it is in canon is Konoha fodder is like, the worst fodder. They don't really do much of note besides getting punked by kids who can't even pass the academy exams. But their named characters are exceptionally powerful and basically carry the fight on their backs.

I mean Fodder in all nations suck. That doesn't tell us anything.

Meanwhile mist fodder caught a jinchurki XD

Which Jinchuriki are you referring to?

 

[kyuukestu]

Meanwhile mist fodder caught a jinchurki XD

Exactly. We'd need to give these fodder character strength that actually represents their rank. That's the only way Konoha would actually have the strongest Military (not counting Named characters)

 

[Shen: King of Digimon]

Which Jinchuriki are you referring to?

Utakata

Mist fodder is the superior fodder!

Pure mist master race!

 

[kyuukestu]

I mean Fodder in all nations suck. That doesn't tell us anything.



Which Jinchuriki are you referring to?

Yes, but Fodder from all the other nations is still better than Konoha fodder. Konoha's Anbu were being restrained by Chunin and Jonin from Suna during the Konoha Crush Arc.

 

[Godjacob]

Exactly. We'd need to give these fodder character strength that actually represents their rank. That's the only way Konoha would actually have the strongest Military (not counting Named characters)

I mean the War Arc shows the fodder of the other nations are just as garbage.

 

[Godjacob]

Yes, but Fodder from all the other nations is still better than Konoha fodder. Konoha's Anbu were being restrained by Chunin and Jonin from Suna during the Konoha Crush Arc.

The same fodder that helped solo Suna & Oto forces you mean?

I think it's an issue across the board not just Konoha.

 

[kyuukestu]

Utakata

Eh, nai, Pain captured him. He was just sparing the Mist Shinobi because he didn't want to kill them.

The Jinchuriki they would've captured was whoever was the 3 tails, which they managed to capture several times.

 

[Shen: King of Digimon]

Yes, but Fodder from all the other nations is still better than Konoha fodder. Konoha's Anbu were being restrained by Chunin and Jonin from Suna during the Konoha Crush Arc.

Sand village fodder are second worst. Deidara’s spiders alone killed a dozen of them without them even suspecting a thing

 

[Godjacob]

The Jinchuriki they would've captured was whoever was the 3 tails, which they managed to capture several times.

Wasn't Yugara the Jinchuriki host for the longest time? The Mist Mizukage?